Well, i don’t have anything to talk about today and the Lakers are losing right now which doesn’t help matters, so … anyone got any questions for me?
2d or 3d?
2D gameplay for sure, but i can go either way on graphics. I think the biggest problem with 3D visuals is how quickly they become dated. Remember when all the gaming magazines were fawning over Battle Arena Toshinden graphics? Has anyone looked at that game lately? Hideously ugly! Somehow 2D is immune to that pitfall.
Now that you mention it, i’m very curious how SF4 will look in 5 years. It might look decent because of the stylized approach Capcom took, but then again Xbox 720 graphics might be so crazy that SF4 looks pixelated in hindsight. Who knows?
There’s some bits I look at on sf4 (usually after playing CoD) and I just think that looks horrible and it would look perfect if it was 2D. But having said that the animation in comparison to old games is lovely.
Sf4 would have sucked in 2d visuals.It needs those camera angles, and those cutscene ultras,
But it needs some polish on some things like throwing sakura with seth and you just grab the air above her head.
Haha does that really happen? That seems like something they could’ve fixed easily if they had noticed it in time.
Yeh I think throws have most the problems. Like rufus being thrown looks ugly.
I don’t know about that one. Throwing Rufus is one of the only things i like about him being in the game. It’s fun to throw gigantic characters (Hauzer, Sentinel) and tiny characters (Nakoruru, Servbot).
Yeh buts it’s the way his arms plaster down to his sides or rather into his sides.
Hey Maj I was the guy that asked about the hitbox thing for HDR. Claw apparently has a hitbox on his throws too, so we thought maybe using the same setup from the ryu comboing two cr.hks could work.
I tried with ken, but it appears impossible to get him in front of his hado.
Its wierd but there are quite a few characters that have vulnerable hitboxes during their throws or holds and some that don’t like hawk.
I’m just curious at what would happen if a character when into hit stun while throwing/holding an opponent.
Checking in HDR’s Training Mode, it looks like the hitboxes for both Ken’s and Vega’s throws didn’t change from Classic mode to Remixed mode. I tried a few setups with Ken but nothing out of the ordinary happened. Fireballs just pass through him.
However, something interesting happened with Vega when i tried his throw in Versus Mode. You can time it so he passes through projectiles but if you do it early so the projectile is still touching Vega after the slam, he gets hit.
SSF2T Vega Throw Test 01
It’s easier for me to record via emu so i switched to real ST. I’ll leave the fun of guessing why it happens to you.
That’s interesting that Ken’s hitbox is unaffected. Just to ask, who’s fireball did you use on Ken?
My question is why do some characters have a hitbox on their throws, why some don’t and why some(ken, and assuming some more are like him) don’t appear to function.
I have noticed in some cases, if you tech chun li’s throw deep in the corner, you can hit her before she recovers from her own throw.
I used Dhalsim’s LP Yoga Fire, Guile’s LP Sonic Boom, and Akuma’s LP air fireball to test Ken’s F+MK hold. None of them affected him.
My guess would be that throws have a special kind of invincibility while the characters are linked together, so nothing can touch them even if hitboxes are displayed. Even with Chun and Vega, they can’t be touched until after they’ve let go.
It’s just strange that Vega lets go on the same frame as his damage registers, which leads to the double KO at the end. Maybe this is true of other throws as well, but they’re harder to test because they don’t have such a convenient projectile chasing setup or such a quick throw.
Could you break this down? This question was originally posted by Raakam on SRK, but the HDR Guile forums are full of people doing their best fighting game version of “I don’t have lyrics(combos)”
Alright, Guile players, I need some assistance. I’ve pulled this combo off all of 3 times, and it was a dizzy every time. I don’t have the talent to pull it off regularly, so I figured I’d ask one of you guys to maybe test it a bit more thoroughly than I am able.
2 Variations I did:
J. hp cr.lk st.lk xx sonic boom st.fp/st.hk/cr.hk – I did it with st.fp and got dizzy. It did a fair bit of damage too. It worked in the corner, not sure if it would work midscreen.
This one I managed on a crouching Gief –
x up j.lk cr.lk cr.lk st.lk xx fp sonic boom st.fp – and also got a dizzy. This one did about the same damage as the first one.
Anyhow, Marsgatti regularly pulls the x up lk, cr.lk cr.lk xx Super combo, but when he does cr.lk x 2 xx Flash kick, it almost never dizzies. This one dizzied all 3 times I did it. Anyone have the time to test it a bit more?
Hm, i’m not really sure what the question is. Knockdowns and juggles usually cause way less dizzy than projectiles and non-knockdown hard attacks, so it’s not surprising that the Flash Kick version and super version don’t dizzy as much as an extra Sonic Boom combined with an extra fierce punch.
Then you have certain attacks which never seem to dizzy, like Guile’s close s.HK – as if it wasn’t useless enough. I mean they practically have to be a jab away from getting dizzy for that thing to cause dizzy. I don’t know if there’s a universal system to it but i’m guessing it’s all arbitrarily assigned values, mostly for balance purposes.
Any chance of getting the combo on video and describing how to do it? That’s really where I’m confused.
Oh, it shouldn’t be that hard. The forward version is like UF, charge DB, HP, LK, neutral LK, F+HP, F+HP. You have plenty of time to charge. Just make sure you don’t let go until right before you need to press neutral LK.
Practice doing c.LK -> neutral LK xx Sonic Boom and you’ll get it in no time.
The crossup version is a little harder because of the charge time but it shouldn’t be that bad. Though i doubt the Sonic Boom combos on most characters after two c.LK’s.
Well the dude made it seem like the first combo was possible on someone other than Gief, which I’m not really convinced of. I can DO it, but only on Gief.
Hm, you’re right, this thing isn’t very practical at all. I only got it to work on Dhalsm and Guile, and you have to do the c.LK -> s.LK part with one-frame accuracy. Didn’t work on T.Hawk, Honda, or Fei Long at all. It probably doesn’t work on most of the cast. This would be a lot easier if it didn’t start with c.LK after a jump attack because the slow startup of c.LK forces you to do the jump-in super late so you get hella pushback.
But no, this isn’t a practically consistent combo for many reasons. Though the c.LK to s.LK component alone might be somewhat useful in certain situations.
The combo j.jab, cr.short, st.short, Flash Kick is called “The Muteki”, it’s used on Sim due to the effectiveness of Guile’s jump jab compared to his other moves when trying to capitalize on a jump in. But the chances of being able to corral Sim into a corner… just seemed too good to be true with that Sonic Boom combo, and I’m not really interested in Gief punching bag combos for the most part. I imagine no one who really played ST is anymore.
You don’t need corner to get the four hits against Sim, but you can’t follow up after the Sonic Boom midscreen. Either way the timing is way too strict to be practical. In HDR i think you’re way better off doing c.LK renda kara HK Flash Kick combos. Easier to execute, more time to hit confirm, more damage, plus knockdown.
Am I right to think that cammy’s normal cannon spike only has juggle potential on the deep hitbox while the ex only has juggle on the in the air hitbox?
Yeah, it’s weird how they did that, but yeah. I tried to find a use for it in the Cammy TACV but couldn’t find any interesting applications because all she’s got after one EX juggle is ultra, which is too slow to start up.
yeh i always used to do it for more damage on the second one but now i realise that isn’t the case.
Please explain what the fuck just happened here.
CvS2 Ryu’s Hurricane Kick has 13 frames of startup and he’s considered airborne the whole time. I’m not sure if he can be airthrown during the first animation frame but he can definitely be grabbed before it becomes active.
Guile’s FK super is -16 on block so my guess is Ryu did Hurricane Kick too late and Guile screwed up an HK Flash Kick attempt so Ryu got air thrown.
In relation to the email of mine you just answered… (Thanks much.) Can you figure out a way to construct a test of determining whether or not an up input, when entered during the frames where a character is in the process of crouching from a neutral position, will immediately cancel those crouching frames and start the initial jump frames?
This is, of course, in relationship to SF4. But hey, at least I’m not going on about BB:CS or MB:AA. :p
Yeah it’s pretty straightforward if you’re down to record footage and count frames. Just turn on Input Display in Training Mode and count how long it takes your character to get off the ground after the U icon first appears.
Maybe run it back a few times to verify, but as long as you flick from D to U, you can probably better there in 1 frame. Just make sure you’re fully crouching before you begin. Then put the two clips side by side and see if there’s any difference. Testing with three or four different character is a good idea too.
There’s this theory that the act of crouching (the frames between neutral and crouch) itself might delay when the jump starts.
Starting from crouch certainly adds delay to various actions, for instance going from crouch to walking adds like 2-4 rising frames before you start moving.
But other actions bypass that altogether. For example going from crouching directly into a standing attack or a special move doesn’t add any frames. My guess is jumping falls into this category.
It’s easier for me to record via emu so i switched to real ST. I’ll leave the fun of guessing why it happens to you.
I’m guessing it’s because Vega is vulnerable during his throw recovery. Seems like there’s a good number of situations where you could have someone avoid a projectile with a wake up reversal throw, only to pull themselves back on top of it, or fail to have it clear…
In fact, it seems that sort of thing could be set up nicely with a blocked cross-up attack.
It’s only a little weird that he’s vulernable during recovery. It’s very weird that he’s actually vulnerable during the impact/damage frame of a throw. Double KO wouldn’t be possible if he remained invulnerable until recovery.
But i’m not sure there’s anything more to say beyond “lol random.”
Hey maj and all :)
So i’m new to SF4 and am just starting to use plinking to link consistently. My question is trivial at best and irrelevant at worst(i dunno if i’m missing something obvious) but, how does the game read inputs? As in I know I won’t be hitting my HP+MP exactly 1/60th sec apart, but do I consistently have a leeway? e.g. if the game reads inputs according to the frame rate that’s going on, and if I tend to hit my plink 1/70th sec apart, there’s a chance that both inputs end up in the same frame and thus no plink for that time(or if 1/50th of a sec I could skip over an entire frame?). I’m doing it with HP+MP and am gettting it fairly consistently but would HP+MP+LP give extra consistency/leeway?
My understanding is that the game basically samples your controller 60 times per second at fixed intervals. If you’re holding down a button when the sample occurs, that input is processed.
Theoretically you could press and release a button faster than 1/60th of a second and it might not register at all, but that never happens in practice. Most button presses take like 2-3 frames at least.
If you press the button on two consecutive frames, then you’re considered to be holding that button for two frames. Same goes for directions on the stick, except those can be continuously held to continue walking forward or blocking or rejumping or whatever.
Therefore it’s theoretically impossible to press the same button twice on two consecutive frames. It would simply count as holding the button for two frames. Normally the fastest you can press the same button repeatedly is 30 times per second, with a release on every other frame.
That’s what makes plinking so special/weird. You’re basically tricking the game into giving you the same button input on two consecutive frames. This doesn’t happen in any other Capcom fighting game outside of the SF4 series.
Anyway your allowance is the time between the current input sample and the next frame’s input sample. So basically you have one full frame to press the next button and it will count. If you hit the next button 1/70th of a frame later, it will definitely register. If you hit the next button 1/50th of a frame later, it will probably register unless your first button input was super precise. Although if you kept doing either of those delays five times in a row on five consecutive frames, both cases would start missing eventually.
But you really don’t have to worry too much about this stuff. For all practical purposes, it works as intended. If you’re missing links, you should worry about improving your timing instead of worrying about the input system being flawed. It works well enough by all accounts.
Hopefully that answers your question.
Thanks Maj :) I noe I won’t have to bother with plinking with three buttons now
Another question: As Chun, using her ex SBK I am definitely standing up right before it comes out. It is possible to execute it in a way where the standing up part is eliminated no? I suppose if I “kara-cancel” it using a plink it would be possible? But is there any easier/more consistent way to do it?(sometimes they time a vertical jump as I’m waking up, and also if I can do this consistently I could perhaps use it as anti-air later than I would be able to, getting more hits in the process? I’m not sure; currently I hardly use it as anti-air)
If you were asking about any other game, the answer would be easy: press a button while crouching and kara-cancel into EX Spinning Bird Kick.
Unfortunately, the SF4 series shortened the normal move kara-cancel window to one frame. That doesn’t give you enough time to constently hit a crouching button and reach U+KKK one frame later.
However if you’re asking about wakeup situations, you have two options. You can either press U+KKK like 3-4 frames early, to take advantage of SF4’s lenient reversal window. That way it doesn’t matter what you do because you’re still in wakeup animation during the motion.
Alternatively, you can try going to U a couple of frames before the end of wakeup animation, then return the stick to D, then press KKK. As long as you’re back in D before the end of wakeup animation, none of those directional inputs will change the way Chun Li gets up.
Thanks Maj. I know that a reversal eliminates the “standing up part” but for those timed neutral jumps upon my wakeup being forced to do it as a reversal often gave me best case 1-hit or a trade. Issue being that if done as a reversal her invulnerability wears off before contact. One frame is definitely too short for even the sharpest of “up-stick” motions? So it’s impossible/impractical then? I also didn’t understand the thing about “return the stick to D, then press KKK”; this still would give a reversal SBK? (also, SSF4 has a “crouch delay” e.g. you can’t duck under a high tiger shot immediately upon wakeup? Just for interest do you know how many frames this is?)
More qns lol:
– Say Chun’s st.strong to super link: it is practical/possible for
plinking and negative edge to work together? e.g. frame 1:HK, frame 2:
HK+MK, frame 3: HK lifted off(and perhaps even a frame 4 lifting off
MK?) Or should I not bother/it doesn’t work that way?
– Plinking does help in punishes(e.g. say you know he’s at -3 or -4, would plinking a short
make it easier to catch him?
– In trying to learn double tapping(with no more than a frame apart),
is Sagat’s fake kick a good way to see if I’m doing it right?
– Somewhere on some youtube comment I read that when trying to link a
special/super, you can do it a “few frames earlier than your own
recovery”(he was implying it was a lot easier than linking a normal)?
This is not true is it(unless he means later lifting off the finger
as in negative edge)?
It’s not impossible to go from D to U in one frame, and it’s definitely a lot easier than most other motions, but i still doubt it’s a practical option.
Actually this command might be your best bet:
charge D, U, D+MP, D+KKK
That way you don’t have to do the joystick motion inbetween the button presses. The hardest part of that motion would be timing the crouching punch on the first frame of wakeup without the reversal buffer window. But that only delays your reversal by one frame, so it’s probably still useless.
The only other suggestion i have is to whiff your fastest crouching move on wakeup, then do EX SBK. That avoids the mandatory standing animation entirely, but once again you need frame-perfect timing without the reversal special move buffer. (And no, i don’t know how many frames the “crouch delay” normally lasts on wakeup in SF4.)
Or if you’re trying to use it in non-reversal situations, you can whiff a low jab or something. Then complete the U+KKK motion right as you recover from the jab. Or tap U right before recovery and hold D again for a few more frames to delay it.
Anyway regarding your other questions, you can definitely get four super inputs on consecutive frames in the way you described. But i’m not sure how plinking works with special move inputs, so you might be getting alternating HK and MK super commands. That’s how it would work in any other Capcom game outside the SF4 series.
Plinking does help in punish situations, because it’s the same general principle as plinking after attack recovery.
I haven’t seen input frame data for Sagat’s fake kick, but i would expect it to offer at least one frame of leniency. I’d be very surprised if it required a perfect double tap.
Only certain states allow you to buffer special or super moves – landing from a jump, coming out of a dash, and reversal situations. Otherwise if you’re trying to link a special or super after a normal attack, there’s no such leniency as far as i know.
Thanks again Maj; was being retarded there, but now I get what you meant. I’ll get around to thinking about ex SBK again but for now I’ll take it as I can’t easily have a no-pre-standing non-reversal SBK without whiffing stuff.
Guess what: more questions! Out of interest and perhaps future reference:
– I chanced upon G77 saying in SYK forums that Ken’s f+mk is kara-cancellable from frames 1-3(for kara throw at least). Does the kara-cancel window just extend itself for certain forward-moving normals or something? Also, in that same comment, G77 said that the kara throw can’t be teched on the “connecting” frame, i.e. has to be at least a frame after it connects. I know it’s real trivial but is this correct(irregardless if kara-ed or not)?
– Probably a redundant question, but I suppose if for some reason I want to wake-up with a normal with reversal timing, plinking would apply as well? Also could apply to landing from an empty jump(attempting to do something as fast as possible upon landing)?
As a general rule, the kara-cancel window in the SF4 series is one frame. Arbitrarily, there are a handful of command normals with longer kara-cancel windows. The other main examples are Sagat’s F+LK and F+HK, Honda’s DF+HK, and Makoto’s F+LK.
I’m not sure what the rules are for throw techs, but it wouldn’t surprise me if you have to wait until the throw connects. That’s been the case for most fighting game series so far. Anyway i think most top players input throw techs super late in SF4, because that makes it harder to frame trap them.
Plinking should apply to wakeup normals, but i haven’t tested it. It’s not really useful when landing from a jump, because jump landing already has a buffer. (That’s what makes it easier to do Sagat’s fake kick using jump land.)
Thanks Maj. My understanding is that any action done in the air results in being unable to block for the first two landing frames and unable to attack for all four, but allows for buffering an attack during any of the four frames(both normals and specials). Whereas an empty jump allows for an attack/blocking from the very first frame upon landing but cannot be buffered. Is this accurate? (I also figured that plinking won’t help empty jump ‘cos it wouldn’t be an empty jump anymore)
I can’t verify that frame data, but it sounds about right. And your explanation for why plinking doesn’t work on jump landing is spot on.
Thanks for the answers. And apparently I’m not done with that SBK yet.
I was watching frame data for Chun and I noticed that standing isn’t always instant. In particular, this “slow stand” enabled an lk sbk to be performed without her ever really standing(but the subsequent ones all had at least a frame where she “instant-stood” up before the move). I don’t know the conditions/reason for this difference.
Sorry about the late response. The only potential answer i have is that maybe the first animation frame of SBK is Chun Li standing, so maybe that’s what happens when you execute instant SBK from crouch?
It’s also possible that the game animates an extra tween frame to smooth out the transition from crouch. Unfortunately with 3D games, counting frames isn’t always easy because animations can generate extra inbetween states unlike 2D sprites.