Mirror matches tend to be problematic in fighting games, because both players have the same exact general objective, often without sufficient versatility to properly impede that objective. Either they devolve into complete turtlefests (ST Guile vs Guile), mindless rushdown (ST Vega vs Vega), or blind guessing (ST Honda vs Honda).
Somehow Ryu vs Ryu is always exempt. It’s always a good matchup, even in games which are competitively subpar otherwise. By contrast, most characters only get worthwhile mirror matches in one or two games, e.g., CvS2 Guile, 3S Chun Li, and SFA2 Akuma.
On a fundamental design level, Ryu is arguably the most fleshed out character in Street Fighter. He has answers for everything, but executing them requires planning and risk. While there are dominant areas in Ryu’s arsenal, he has almost nothing that would be considered “free.” For instance, there are countless situations where Guile can safely throw Sonic Booms, whereas one careless Hadoken is all it takes for Ryu to lose the match. Even his famous fireball traps are only guaranteed for two or three reps at maximum; the rest are mindgames.
Since Ryu has a direct answer for every telegraphed angle of attack, everything in this mirror match has to be earned the hard way. There are no shortcuts, and establishing the upper hand in the ground game is worth a lot. All of the wonderful fundamental nuances of zoning and footsies take center stage here.
Ryu vs Ryu is an awesome learning tool. Even minor mistakes committed during the course of a round become immediately evident, because there are no instant comeback shenanigans to mask them. Of course, the term “minor” is absolutely relative. There’s nothing like the shock of getting demolished by a seasoned veteran for errors you never bothered correcting because you never thought they were punishable. That’s the beauty of the matchup: it’ll go as deep as you want to take it.
Even Street Fighter versions which have gotten completely out of hand in terms of tournament level complexity still contain a thoroughly satisfying Ryu vs Ryu minigame. For example, Street Fighter Alpha 3 has grown so insanely technical that nobody outside of a few dozen dedicated players knows how to approach it anymore. Recent match videos are virtually unrecognizable compared to the finals of every major American tournament ever held for the game. Yet A-Ryu vs A-Ryu remains untouchable as a pick-up-and-play matchup and holds up perfectly at the highest levels too.
In fact, a couple years back there was an invitational exhibition between SFA3 top players Masumi (V-Sakura/Charlie/Ryu) and Daigo (V-Ryu). They played a total of 40 matches, sticking to their serious V-Ism characters through 30 of them. But for the remaining 10 matches, they played A-Ryu vs A-Ryu straight up. If that’s not legit, i don’t know what is.
The coolest thing about the Ryu/Ryu matchup is there’s always something constructive you can do, no matter how badly you’re losing (or winning). Shoto matches play out differently every single time, and everyone you face will have a different Ryu to show you.
I can´t play shotos for crap but I´ve always loved watching this match in any game. Even in the games I dislike.
DGV vs Daigo HDR finals at SB4 was a great example of this as well.
Dude everyone can play Shotos a little bit. Don’t be shy!
All you need to remember is like three things. Think before you fireball. Don’t jump unless you absolutely know what you’re landing into. And uh, don’t try to be a hero with psychic DP’s every round.
Everything else is experience, which generally takes care of itself over time.
So how do you feel about Guile vs Guile, Maj? I remember stating that it was one of the mirrors that made me want to play Guile, got scorned at iHop after a tourney for that one. What made me extra salty over it were the folks were saying Sagat/Sagat in IV was an interesting mirror.
Personally i think oldschool Guile/Guile is lame because he doesn’t have a good answer for Sonic Booms, which makes it a game of attrition where nothing matters except charge time precision. Anytime you’re not throwing Sonic Booms, wtf are you doing you should be throwing Sonic Booms fool!
A lot of Guile matchups aren’t that fun because you need a very specific category of Sonic Boom counters in order to make it work. Guile vs Honda is bad because Honda can’t do anything and Guile vs Dhalsim is bad because Sim counters Sonic Booms for free. However, oldschool Guile vs Ryu is the purest Street Fighter match ever, or at least tied with something. It’s hard to find that miracle balance, you know.
On the other hand, newschool Guile vs Guile is awesome because CvS Guile is secretly a Shoto. I love that match! It literally feels like Shoto footsies. There are actually incentives to break the “Always Be Charging” rule and walk forward.
If you were asking about SF4, to be honest i’m not sure. In fact i don’t think i’ve ever seen a Guile/Guile match in that game. I could go look it up on u2b but having to do that is a sure sign that i don’t know enough about it. But yeah, if your friends were judging the matchup by oldschool standards, that’s inaccurate because the conditions which made classic Guile/Guile one-dimensional don’t exist anymore.
I don’t know man Kurahashi vs Mutaki always puts a smile on my face. Whenever the topic of mirrors comes up I see Muteki’s smile reminding me of that insane match.
But honestly I can’t think of many mirrors that don’t devolve into randomness. Especially in my game (ST). In VF (my other game) there are some cool mirrors though, like Akira vs Akira, who is like Virtua Ryu. That match is straight up fundamentals. There was even some tournament in Japan where the only character allowed was Akira once IIRC.
On playing shotos btw, I dunno man, I’m just not good with the fireball spacing and zoning game. Ryu was the character I tried learning the game with in the beginning but I just couldn’t get into it. My friends called me the Turret cause I just wouldn’t stop throwing fireballs lol. Not being exceptionally good with distances had always hurt my game in VF before stepping into the 2D realm so it makes sense.
I figured I’d rather just rush down anyways, it’s more fun that way :D.
Okay i’ll admit that one SBO match was badass. But ask yourself if you’d enjoy watching 10 of those in a row. 20? 30? (Keep in mind that Muteki is one of the most offensive Guile players you’ll ever see and that it went to a rare fourth round. I mean, we’re talking best case scenario here, so it’s not quite an accurate representation of the norm.)
Over 10+ rounds the excitement level goes downhill pretty fast, and it’s a safe bet they’ll run out of tricks even faster. Borrom line is, there’s just not that much for Guile to do in that matchup, yet it requires an insane amount of work every time.
If you like rushdown, play rushdown Ryu! Who says you have to throw fireballs? Just walk up and sweep fools.
Frankly, I don’t think I enjoy any specific match 10-20 times in a row unless I’m playing, so I’m not really sure if it’s worth taking the spectator’s spot in a hobby I’m passionate about participating in… but that would beg the question of making the comparison in the first place. I was, in fact, talking about old school Guile. But I feel like I’m making match up comparisons with “tournament” as the unspoken venue. And really, I guess that mind numbing attrition does appeal to me. But, no, I wouldn’t watch those matches in succession.
And on the subject of: Street Fighter IV Guile is a character I find lackluster in every sense. I feel like CVS2 Guile was a Guile that could work within the subsystems he was placed, and ST/Old School Guile just had effective basics that were enjoyable to me… SFIV Guile strikes me as bland, no matter how many combo videos you break out. The game doesn’t do any favors for the character.
I feel like it boils down to the fact that I can’t appreciate losing the flash (no pun intended) of a Somersault Kick compared to the blah of a standing Fierce and a few links, working within a system that’s eventually making a lot of that work meaningless. Because deep down, Guile is Guile in SFIV, he has his gameplan, it’s pretty faithful on a basic level… but I can’t deny that it’s just boring to me compared to other iterations. I don’t think a Guile/Guile mirror in IV is something I could tolerate on any level.
Dunno man, seems like a fair comparison to me. Put any two of these people together in a room: Watson, Valle, Choi, Jason Nelson, Daigo, Shooting D, Gotoh, Dan, Kurahashi. I can watch fifty matches of Ryu/Ryu in a row. No joke.
I’m not saying oldschool Guile/Guile is an unsalvageable match, and any match can be great on a good day, but it’s certainly below average on average.
Oh, no, I don’t disagree there. I see your point, I’m at that point where I’m still working to see a lot of what other players have already seen.
One of the biggest trouble people have using ryu or playing ryu vs ryu is written out already.
“Ryu vs Ryu is an awesome learning tool. Even minor mistakes committed during the course of a round become immediately evident, because there are no instant comeback shenanigans to mask them.”
People are forced to know EVERYTHING about the game in order to play ryu.
1. footsies. i think everyone can agree that specialized characters aren’t really used to footsies at all, and a lot of new comers will not experience much of how the footsie game is really played until they play matches like ryu vs ryu.
2. fireball game. this is an extension of the footsie game that majority of people have NOOO idea how to play. most people throw fireballs at very far distances (often times for no reason other than “hey i can do it safely here” which then gets punished by ultras for those unsuspecting auto-pilot players) or within block strings. being able to utilize fireballs as a footsie tool is a huge obstacle that not everyone is comfortable with, and is a big part of ryu mirror match people have trouble playing.
3. not jumping. seriously, don’t jump vs ryu especially in a mirror match.
4. throw game and corner game. people not familiar with ryu mirrors will often find themselves in the corner. that’s when the super fun throw/corner game starts…
etc.
ryu is a basic character. no real weaknesses, has answers for everything… people who lack a certain basic fundamentals of a game will have trouble playing this matchup, and that’s why i completely agree that ryu mirror is a GREAT learning tool…
however, that’s only if you know how to learn, and that, is a different post altogether.
Well, i meant that sentence as an (overwhelmingly) positive quality, but i can see how people would get intimidated by it.
Generally you don’t have to go through too much grief. If you make it through the first day, i think you’ll be okay because you’ll start to notice what you’re doing wrong. Then it’s a smooth learning process the rest of the way.
But yeah, if that first day is too much to handle for whatever reason, then i can see why someone wouldn’t get far enough into it to appreciate it. Some people get lucky and their first Ryu/Ryu experience is a rewarding one, so they get on the right path right away. Other people might have an unpleasant experience with a rude opponent online, so they might be turned off by the matchup and go back to their previous character.
I guess my whole reason for writing this article was to say “Trust me, it’s worth your time to get over that first hill.”