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PASBR Patch 1.10 Balance Changes

March 19th, 2013 Leave a comment Go to comments

Version 1.10 of PlayStation All-Stars Battle Royale represents a comprehensive tuning patch that affects every character on the roster. Our goal was to identify the biggest imbalances in the game and carefully address them without diluting any fighter’s intended combat persona.

The update went live this afternoon, alongside the release of DLC characters Zeus and Isaac and the new Graveyard level. Detailed patch notes have already been posted online earlier in the week. I’m mirroring the complete verified list here, because frankly i’m proud of these changes and i hope the fighting game community embraces them.

    General Changes
• AP burst victims in online matches no longer erroneously receive the 30 AP bonus.
• Blocking another attack while in block stun reaction no longer zeroes out X velocity.
• Characters can no longer block or dodge for 5 frames after landing during an air attack.
• Characters can not perform supers until frame 12 after landing during an air attack.
• Characters now remain grounded for the first 10 frames of jumping (previously 9 for Kat, Ratchet, Sackboy, Sly Cooper, and Spike).

    Big Daddy
• Air F+Triangle has 11 additional frames of startup.
• Air D+Square now gains 20 AP (previously 10), and victim’s reaction is reduced by 3 frames.
• Level 1 Super now causes an initial stagger reaction on frame 36.
• Level 2 Super’s Triangle attacks are sped up.
• Level 3 Super attacks become active 3 frames sooner and recover 6 frames earlier.
• Level 3 Super attack volumes have been adjusted to be more centered around Big Daddy.
• Level 3 Super victims swim faster and no longer get stuck upon entering Infinite Avoidance.

    Cole MacGrath
F+Square -> Square hit volume enlarged to hit small characters more consistently.
• Neutral Triangle firing rate has been sped up by 4 frames (moved to its recovery instead).
• Ground neutral Circle recovery has been reduced to 20 frames (previously 28).
• Level 3 Super tornado movement speed has been increased.

• Ground neutral Square attacks can now be canceled into Triangle attacks on block.
• Dante can change facing direction between attacks during Square and F+Square chains.
• Ground U+Square is now jump-cancellable on both active frames.
• Air Square hit volumes were adjusted to combo more consistently against short characters.
• Air D+Square (Helm Breaker) now generates 20 AP (previously 10).
• Canceling ground U+Triangle into air neutral Circle now takes 2 frames longer.
• Neutral Circle active counter period has been reduced to 25 frames (previously 30).
• Neutral Circle recovery has been increased by 5 frames.
• Level 1 Super cost has been reduced to 125 AP (previously 150).
• Level 2 Super cost has been reduced to 325 AP (previously 400).

    Nathan Drake
• Neutral Circle has been changed considerably:
  • Barrel no longer explodes if countered or destroyed by opponents.
  • Barrel’s hurtbox size has been increased, making it easier to destroy.
  • Barrel’s lifetime has been reduced by 24 frames.
  • Barrel’s explosion is now only active for 5 frames (previously 30).
  • Teammates will no longer cause damage to friendly barrels.
  • Hitting Drake with twitch attacks will no longer prevent him from creating a barrel.
• U+Triangle explosion is now only active for 5 frames (previously 15).
• U+Square explosion is now only active for 5 frames (previously 15).
• Level 1 Super hit volume has been reduced to 1.85 meters (previously 2.25m).
• Level 3 Super timing has been adjusted so that Drake and the Descendants now become controllable at the same time, 50 frames after the super is initiated.

    Emmett Graves
• Level 2 Super cost has been reduced to 325 AP (previously 350).

    Evil Cole
F+Square -> Square hit volume enlarged to hit small characters more consistently.
• Neutral Triangle firing rate has been sped up by 4 frames (moved to its recovery instead).
• Neutral Triangle Overload size has been increased to 5.5 meters (previously 5m).
• Neutral Triangle Overload recovery has been reduced to 40 frames (previously 70).
• Fully charged neutral Circle punch has been changed considerably:
  • Startup has been increased to 10 frames (previously 6).
  • Active period has been decreased to 11 frames (previously 13).
  • Recovery has been increased by 2 frames.
  • Armor amount has been reduced to 11 AP.
• U+Circle chain has been standardized to generate 5 AP + 5 AP + 20 AP.
• Up Throw trajectory no longer allows guaranteed follow-up into lvl1 super.
• Level 2 Super startup has been reduced to 16 frames (previously 26).
• Level 2 Super blows up victims much faster, but can be extended to full length by holding R2. Evil Cole now drains AP from victims as you grab them, instead of at the very end of the super.

    Fat Princess
• Neutral Square now causes a light overhead reaction and gains 5 AP (previously 10).
• Charged neural Square armor does not activate until frame 6 (previously 1).
• Air F+Circle (Summon Warrior) now has 21 additional frames of startup and longer recovery.
• If Fat Princess summons any assists in the air, she will now land in attack state.
• Level 3 Super effectively has been improved by increasing the number of mages and bombs that appear, removing the warriors’ startup delay, and allowing projectiles to begin tracking opponents during respawn invincibility.

    Heihachi Mishima
• U+Square will not collide with other players for the first 26 frames of the attack, allowing the second uppercut to connect more consistently if the first one whiffs.
• Air U+Triangle now gains 20 AP (previously 10).
F+Circle -> Square VFX for Wind God Fist and Electric Wind God Fist are now more distinct.
• Level 2 Super will no longer be extended if Heihachi is hit by a Freeze Missile.

    Jak and Daxter
• Air F+Square now activates on frame 6, so it no longer drives through opponents.
• Neutral Triangle now causes a heavy reaction and gains 20 AP (previously 10).
• Neutral Triangle startup has been reduced to 20 frames (previously 28).
• Neutral Triangle recovery has been increased to 18 frames (previously 8).
• F+Triangle no longer causes an eject roll reaction, and each shot gains 6 AP (previously 10).
• F+Triangle shots fire 12 frames apart (previously 15) and travel 7 meters (previously 9m).
• F+Triangle now continues to fire when holding the button down.
• Neutral Circle (Drone) lasts 1 second longer and fires a total of 21 shots (previously 12).
• Neutral Circle laser shot lifetimes have been increased 0.3 seconds (previously 0.225 sec).
• F+Circle homing blasts have increased range (~8 meters) and speed, cause a mini-launch lift reaction, and accumulate 20 AP total (previously 10).
• U+Circle startup was reduced to 25 frames (previously 41) with 2 more frames of recovery.
• D+Circle hit volume has been reduced by 50% so that it no longer hits behind Jak.
• Level 1 Super cost has been reduced to 125 AP (previously 150).
• Level 2 Super now causes an initial shock reaction 12 frames after timescale returns to normal, which stuns nearby opponents and pushes them into the killing blow. The speed of the super has been increased by 25% and can now kill during the jump arc.

• Backward evade has been standardized to behave like the rest of the cast.
• Ground D+Square reaction has been shortened to 49 frames (previously 50) and D+Triangle minimum cancel times have been increased to 10 frames (previously 9) to prevent D+Square, D+Triangle -> Square infinite.
• Level 1 Super will no longer kill people protected by a Gravity Shield.

• Second neutral Square attack recovery has been reduced to -10 on block (previously -14).
• Third neutral Square attack recovery has been increased to -10 on block (previously +0).
• Neutral Triangle now gains 20 AP consistently – it can no longer gain 40 AP.

• Air U+Square startup has been increased by 2 frames and gravity properties were adjusted.
• Air D+Triangle now flattens victims that are grabbed out of the air.
• Air U+Circle now completes the entire animation upon landing.
• Level 2 Super cost has been reduced to 325 AP (previously 350).
• Level 2 Super ammo limit has been removed and rate of fire has been decreased. Turning the cannon around will now knock away any nearby opponents.
• Level 3 Super now ends properly when the timer expires, and can no longer be extended by performing her Circle attack or holding L1 to block.

• Ground F+Square pushback has been reduced to allow more follow-up options.
• Ground D+Square -> F+Square chain has been removed for easier U+Square follow-ups.
• D+Circle (Boxy Boy) will no longer repeatedly eject AP orbs when dropped inside a ledge.
• Level 2 Super duration has been shortened to 4 seconds (previously 5 sec).

    Col. Mael Radec
• U+Circle active period has been increased to 70 frames (previously 40).

• Air D+Triangle, air F+Circle, and air F+Triangle are all more punishable on block.
• Down Throw now causes a bounce reaction, allowing combo follow-ups.
• Level 1 Super recovery was increased by 8 frames and can no longer be steered using LS.
• Level 2 Super air Square and air Triangle attacks are no longer blockable.
• Level 3 Super decoy NPC boxes will now cause the game camera to zoom out properly.
• Air U+Circle will no longer perform follow-up stomps on destroyed boxes during lvl3 super.

    Ratchet and Clank
• Neutral Circle (Mr. Zurkon) fires 15 shots (previously 17), each worth 2 AP (previously 1).
• D+Circle (Tesla Spike) has 6 AP of durability (previously 1).
• Throw victims no longer cause twitch reactions after being shot out of the Suck Cannon.
• Level 1 Super projectile collision was shrunk by 90% to increase effectiveness on ramps.
• Level 2 Clank can now be hit by Raiden’s lvl2 initial burst and Jak’s lvl2 initial shock.

• Neutral Triangle (Jam Session) startup has been reduced to 40 frames (previously 57).
• F+Triangle frame advantage has been increased by +5 on hit.
• F+Triangle can now be canceled by rolling and jumping during the charge-up period.
• Down Square (Bounce Pad) active period ends after 0.3 seconds, matching the air version.
• Neutral Circle (Cake Mine) will disappear after 5 seconds.
• D+Circle (Electric Panel) startup has been increased by 16 frames and recovery has been extended slightly. Interrupting Sackboy during startup will now prevent the Electric Panel from being created. The mine itself can now be absorbed and reflected.
• Level 1 Super cost has been reduced to 125 AP (previously 150).
• Level 2 Super cost has been reduced to 325 AP (previously 400).
• Level 3 Super victim bubbles are now able to move 50% faster.

    Sir Daniel
• Down Throw no longer makes Sir Daniel jump on the wrong side of the victim.
• Level 1 Super active period has been increased by 8 frames.
• Level 1 Super recovery has been reduced by 4 frames.
• Level 2 Super cost has been reduced to 325 AP (previously 350).
• Level 2 Super homing Spirits now have delayed activation, following the non-homing Spirits. They will not blow up on opponents as they leave the Chalice, improving the chance that one homing projectile per opponent will remain after after any initial kills.

    Sly Cooper
• Neutral Circle active counter period has been reduced to 15 frames (previously 26).
• Neutral Circle recovery has been increased to 25 frames (previously 11).
• Level 1 Super is now vulnerable from frame 5 until Murray’s hit volume becomes active. Interrupting Sly during startup will now prevent Murray from attacking. The hit volume that appears when Murray splats onto the ground has been made smaller.

• F+Square causes a stagger reaction and gains 20 AP (previously 30) when not fully charged.
• Air D+Triangle now gains 5 AP (previously 10 AP), causes a shock reaction with correct hit stun, and can be countered by projectile counters.
• Neutral Circle now has an extra 5 AP running hit added to its second stage.
• Forward Throw (Monkey Trip!) now causes an eject roll reaction (previously stagger).
• Throws have been remapped to be more intuitive:
  • Up Throw: Sonic Revolution (cases eject tornado reaction)
  • Forward Throw: Monkey Trip! (causes eject roll reaction)
  • Down Throw: Crash Hurricane (causes flatten reaction).
• Level 1 and Level 2 Supers can properly change facing direction on activation.
• Level 2 Super projectile travels faster and explodes on impact with solid walls.

    Sweet Tooth
• Ground neutral Triangle can now be steered using LS while active.
• Ground neutral Triangle now gains 30 AP total (previously 8 AP) from a victim caught in front. Victims behind get ejected (previously light reaction) and earn 30 AP (previously 10).
• Air neutral Triangle now gains 30 AP total (previously 25 for front hits and 15 on back hits).
• U+Triangle (Machete Toss) now continues through all opponents after a successful hit. The machete’s hit volume now deactivates properly when it becomes lodged in the ground.
• Level 2 Super cost has been reduced to 325 AP (previously 400).
• Level 2 Super rocket explosion radius has been enlarged by 0.5 meters, missile flight speed and maneuverability have been increased, and minimum detonation time has been decreased to 6 frames (previously 15).
• Level 3 Super duration has been reduced to 13.5 seconds (previously 15 sec).

    Toro Inoue
• Ground neutral Circle duration is now infinite.
• Oni air Up+Triangle can now only be used once per jump.
• Oni air D+Triangle startup has been increased by 9 frames with 4 more frames of recovery.
• Level 1 and Level 2 Supers can now turn around properly during the first 5 frames of activation and will no longer slide during activation if Toro was running.

• LR-3 Railgun hit volume thickness has been doubled and aiming sensitivity reduced.
• Sonic Rift hit volume sizes have been increased by 33%.
• Sturgeon power swing armor has been extended until the end of its active period.
• Murder of Crows and Sackbot can no longer be countered during their AP eject hits.
• Sackbot no longer allows opponents to generate AP or pick up AP orbs while attached.
• Spear of Destiny now has 21 AP of armor during startup and active frames. The initial strike now generates 20 AP (previously 10).

Categories: Game Design, Strategy Tags:
  1. khknight
    March 5th, 2014 at 09:58 | #1

    Above average zoning???????????

    Oooooookay, that is extremely debatable given how jak gets destroyed in the zoning department by every other zoner, cept maybe radec. Especially my ratchet, drake and issac.

    I never jak as a medium range to long range zoner, not in his games or this games.

    If the jak series ended at 2, u could make an arguement for jak being a zoner but jak 3 jak was really a crowd controller.

    Thats what jak should of been and can be in this next patch without really changing much at all.
    The ground work is already there.


    The moves that need priority in buffs are his needle laser, beam reflexor, mass inverter, wave concussor and arc weilder.

    Needle laser needs to be able to track 180 degrees in front of jak, as opposed to the 360 degrees tracking of pre 1.10

    Beam reflexor needs its true properties back, being able to bounce off enemies, along with slightly more range and less recovery.

    Mass inverter needs lasting active frames to be able to effiecently catch people on wake ups, rolling heavily and spam dive moves.

    The wave concussor, u already know what i wanted for that and the arc weilder doesn’t really gain all that much ap and the reactions it cause doesnt benefit jak in any way. It could be much better if it gained atleast 30 ap and caused rolling ejects on grounded enemies and spiral ejects on mid air enemies.

    His melee is okay, it just needs to hit more consistently which really asking for much. His other guns that are more zoning centric like the blaster and peacemaker really just need an ap buff(though i would like to see the blaster get its old range back so it can compete with drakes ak and issacs blaster)

  2. March 5th, 2014 at 14:14 | #2

    You realize that there need to be 12 characters with better zoning than Jak for his zoning to be considered below average, right?

  3. _LightSage
    March 5th, 2014 at 18:34 | #3

    @Maj Ok you mentioned his grabs in 2 post, so i’ll combined my reply in this reply. First off, thanks for the hit volume point even though you wasn’t sure.

    I don’t understand how having Daxter’s arm count as a hitbox would be “ridiculous” when Jak still has one of the longest whiffed/recovery and slow start up grabs in the game. You are aware that his start up is also slow to right? Big Daddy and Sir Dan (two slow and slower based characters than Jak) even have faster start ups (and recovery), so I don’t see why this would be a problem, especially since a longer grab, the Suck Cannon, exist in the game. Daxter’s arm isn’t that long. If Jak’s start up of his grab was increased then I would NO DOUBT agree with you completely, but I can see Jak’s slow start up frames as a compensation for Daxter’s hand hypothetically.

    1st Quote of yours- “Throw animation makes it hard to create followups that would look decent. It’s got a very particular motion arc to it that can’t be interrupted too early without looking wonky, but a late double jump cancel wouldn’t give him much combo potential.”

    2nd Quote of yours- “I don’t think Jak needs a strong combo from throw, but being able to generate an extra 30 AP might be worth looking into”

    1st answer. I understand exactly what you mean. That was very helpful. About the, “wouldn’t give him much combo potential.” Maj… i’m not looking for or implying long combos. As long as up grab can lead into his Jetboard or Spinkick that is completely fine. But basically, jump cancel is out of the question for up grab, which brings me back to my alternative… why not change the reaction of his up grab to cause a full launch reaction like Isaac’s, Cole’s and Kat’s up grab precisely? That reaction-animation should be long enough for non-wonky combo potential.

    2nd answer. He doesn’t need a strong combo off throw. I agree with you. He just needs something off a throw to compensate for his lack of long combos & low AP gain (when his moves are used outside combos), which is why I said, “short combo that doesn’t lead into an AP burst.” So looking at your line, “but being able to generate an extra 30AP might be worth looking into”, you’d give him a combo off up grab then. This is what I suggested to you. “Short combo” implied a Jetboard combo which is 35AP. In conclusion, Up grab, with it’s full launch reaction, + jump + aS1 + aN1/aS1 combo = 35AP gained. As I said he wouldn’t be able to get an AP burst off his grab, because of Jak’s moveset build. Any possibility of an AP burst would be through a short stage with platforms like Dojo. So do you agree with the reaction change, because I believe that’s the only alternative to jump cancel?

  4. khknight
    March 5th, 2014 at 18:49 | #4

    I thougt we were just talking about zoning focused characters. Sure jak got more range than a lot of characters, but when compared only to the zoning focused characters, he’s at the bottom of that bunch.

    But that wasnt even the point of my last post, i said jak to me was never really a zoner but a crowd controller.

  5. _LightSage
    March 5th, 2014 at 20:10 | #5

    Maj :
    Sorry sir, i’m not really interested in doing that. But i can tell you generally that Jak’s main problem is that his play style is caught in a weird middle ground. He has above average zoning tools but isn’t much of a threat up close. That works fine in FFA, but falls flat in 1v1. I assume that’s mostly what you guys are complaining about.

    I agree with you saying Jak has above average zoning tools. Technically, you’re right. But can it be claimed that they are “effective” zoning tools in their current states? IMO, no. But this is what heavy melee characters lack, so in terms of range alone, Jak’s tools are above average as you said. Now as for FFA. Jak is actually one of the worst characters in FFA with his hard to get level 3 being his biggest savior and even that isn’t always guaranteed due to other characters potential to multi kill with their lv2s and lv3s through their higher AP gain moves and through their longer combo potential which grants reliable AP gain.

    Maj. IMO the S3’s range is just about perfect (and identical to it’s original game’s counterpart which is pretty great). The range isn’t the problem or major problem for this move. The tracking is soley. I would buff the tracking and keep the every other aspect of the gun the same then it should respectively be balanced with it’s current recovery and speed. Compared to his pre-build S3 overall.. the current NL with a tracking buff still wouldn’t be that close to his older NLs. It also still wouldn’t be spammable which is something you guys did your best at preventing Jak from doing from the release of this game and now. D3 was only spammable in FFA along with S2 before the patches, so in every other mode it was balanced.

    IM(BEST)O the only guns/moves that need range buffs for now are Jak’s S2 and D2. That’s only 2 moves and he wouldn’t be a long range monster with them. His N2 could use a slight range buff, but that’s not a necessity due to other buffs this gun needs, so range is considered a future or openminded buff. Since S2 is an obvious 1-2 meter range buff (IMO 1+ meter as opposed to 2+), I don’t need elaborate in that field. I’d additionally leave out the eject feature (this move is better off as a ranged tool that gets it’s consistent AP through poking and chiping and would serves Jak’s character better without the eject), buff start up, because it definitely has a bias start up compared to almost all of the other counterpart gun moves in PSASBR, revert it’s rate of fire back to it’s old frames apart (which compensates for the faster start up and is a nerf), remove continuous fire (which either this or the faster shot travels would remove Jak’s sinking glitch with his air version and is also another nerf) and finally restoring the AP per bullet back to 10per (again with no eject).

    For D2, this is very simple. I thought it would be a neat idea if this gun burrows/takes a few aspects from S2 since they’re practically clone moves with one of the moves just having 1 special ability about. What I mean is, D2 should always match the start up frames, recovery frames, range and AP of S2. Now how do I know this won’t be a problem? Because I have not re-added the ability for this gun to bounce off opponents which this change I left out completely makes all my suggestions fair. If I bought this ability back then D2 couldn’t have most of the suggestions I listed. The sole thing that made the D2 OP in the old build was it’s bouncing between opponents effect. I have no idea why the range had to be nerfed with the effect. That was literally unnecessary. Additionally, I noticed via patch 1.10 that his D2 got another range nerf, but was a stealth nerf.

    Short Recap of the buffs I suggested:
    Buff – Ranged increased by 1 meter (not 2).

    Buff – Start up slightly increased. Recovery remains for balance.

    Buff – AP restored to 10AP per bullet. Eject does not return which helps out Jak and opponents at the sametime. This was also suggested for collision purposes as well. 6AP is factually too low of an AP gain per bullet.

    Nerf – Decrease rate of fire/restore old rate of fire which compensates for the faster start up.

    Nerf – Continuous fire removed which this or the decreased rate of fire change WOULD fix the glitch with the aerial version.

    N2/Beam Reflexor (Should share all of the aspects of the Blaster/S2. Would copy and pasting work and save time? Lol)-
    Buff – Range set to match S2. Effect to bounce between opponents not restored.

    Buff – Start up set to match S2. Recovery remains the same for balance.

    Buff – AP set/increased to 10 automatically whether S2 gets it’s AP increase to 10 or not. Since this move causes a light reation 10AP is completely relevant. (FYI, I’ve been respecting the game’s AP value standards since the debut of your comment confirming them for all of Jak’s moves I suggest changes to).

    S3/Needle Lazer-
    Buff – Significantly increase tracking. Nothing else changes.

    Overall these changes would make him more faithful to his games and balanced in All-Stars. —**He’d be more faithful through S2 and D2 not only having longer range than S3 but also S2 and D2 being nearly indentical in game-play with the 1 ability to bounce off walls separating the 2 moves from being the exact same move. **More balanced.. he’d just be more balanced and be a better character with these 2 buffs.

    Quote from you- “Who can punish Jak from F+Triangle range or even Neutral traingle range? Well.. to name a few Sir Dan with his Axe and/or Shield Dash since the AP of both Jak’s moves are very low. Big Daddy being another character who’s super armor dash move goes straight through it like it’s nothing, literally. After re-looking at all the cast members after seeing your questions, 85% of the cast can do something about it lol. The only ones who can’t do anything (to make it easier) would be Sweet Tooth, Dante and Raiden. Jak tools are that poor, sadly, that they get out-ranged and out-sped by even heavy melee characters with 1-2 projectile tool, so imagine what a zoner would do.

    khknight :
    the arc weilder doesn’t really gain all that much ap and the reactions it cause doesnt benefit jak in any way. It could be much better if it gained atleast 30 ap and caused rolling ejects on grounded enemies and spiral ejects on mid air enemies.

    Hopefully this quote came out right. Knight. The reaction this move causes does benefit Jak.. in the spacing department; keeping his space. It just doesn’t allow him to have combo potential, but that doesn’t mean it doesn’t benefit Jak. It can’t cause rolling eject on ground without it’s effect-reaction being changed. The move lifts you in the air every-time it’s used (on ground), so it’s impossible to cause it to eject-roll opponents if that effect stays which it most likely will (given this move’s origin, which it represents in this game and even more so thanks to patch 1.10). With this move bought up, the buffs I suggest Maj, are buffing it’s AP value to 25AP total through the method of increasing each shock by 1+, totaling 5AP per shock leading up to 25AP in total. 2nd buff, making the electrical stream keep opponents in it more consistently before the final wide-mini eject.

  6. _LightSage
    March 5th, 2014 at 20:31 | #6

    Sigh… not trying to fill up unnecessary comment boxes, but I meant to say on my 1st reply of page 9 that, “Any possibility of an AP burst would be through a short stage with platforms like Time Station.” I originally said Dojo when I actually meant TS.

  7. March 8th, 2014 at 09:35 | #7

    Seems like we’re just going around in circles again. I don’t have much to say about any of this.

    LightSage: With the animation length of Jak’s up throw and how far back he bounces, changing the mini-launch reaction to full launch isn’t the answer. Trust me, it wouldn’t give him any follow-up options.

    khknight: Who isn’t a crowd control character in their own game? Heihachi, Fat Princess, Parappa, Toro, end of list?

  8. _LightSage
    March 8th, 2014 at 19:54 | #8

    Wouldn’t give him “any”? That seems very odd, especially since Jak can almost Up+Triangle from his current mini launch reaction. It seemed like it would work and it’s actually hard to believe a FRL wouldn’t work, BUT I’ll take your word for it. Ok so this is out of the picture and was very good information as now that idea is erased from my mind.. so I guess we’re back at the “late” jump cancel.

    Ok so a simple question. If up grab is given the “late” jump cancel, would he be able to Jetboard or Spinkick after it? That’s “LITERALLY” all the combo potential Jak needs off up throw, is to Jetboard (or Spinkick) off it. No wall bounces are even needed (but welcomed).

  9. March 9th, 2014 at 00:29 | #9

    I’m sure there are ways to make Jak’s up throw combo into air F+Square. But it would be much easier to set up as a special-case direct cancel, rather than trying to mess with the reaction or letting him jump cancel.

  10. Irokex
    March 9th, 2014 at 08:49 | #10

    Good Lord, so much Jak talk Q.Q. Whatevs, I haven’t posted here in a long time when I was in that whole “Dante needs hitstun on all his guns phase”. My opinion has long since changed and I’ve def improved since then (even though I’m still free to the best players). But I digress.

    Maj, I do have some Dante stuff I’d like to ask you. Was Dante one of the harder characters to balance? Considering his moveset and the way the bold cancel system works, I could imagine it’d be quite easy for him to be a broken character. While I hate that he has such stupidly long recovery, I can understand why it has to be that way. Also, I understand why his guns don’t have hitstun (that’d be so broken). Even his subpar super set is understandable. But since the empty cancel mechanic wasn’t intentional, and that’s really the only thing keeping Dante viable, what exactly was supposed to be the link that made Dante work? Like, without the EC, Dante is pretty bad (maybe slightly better than current Nariko).

    I can imagine that there was a much greater emphasis on his ground game than his air game. His air game isn’t completely awful, as his moves have very long range and can easily lead to HKD (Dante has a decent oki game). His air game is extremely unsafe on whiff and he has few options that are safe on block (Both of these are common issues in his ground game as well). There are also some hitbox inconsistencies in his moveset as well (ground u.square, air n.square, air d.square)/so moves don’t always follow up (n.square string, u.circle, air u.square into air d.square).

    Since this game had FFA as it’s main priority, what was Superbot’s idea of balance for Dante? He is only really viable in 1v1, and even then, he’s barely scraping high tier. In FFA and 2v2, he’s one of the easiest characters to backstab and he lacks fast combos that can get him a decent amount of AP.

    I don’t want to sound like I’m complaining about Dante’s design. He shouldn’t be an easy character to use. I just feel as if he doesn’t have the options to really perform in 2v2 or FFA and he only excels at 1v1 due to an exploit.

  11. _LightSage
    March 9th, 2014 at 09:19 | #11

    Ok. It’s just that I want SSM to implement a way for Jak to be able to combo (Jetboard combo) off his up grab. They said they monitor the forums, so I wanted to be accurate on the suggestions I listed on the forums. I suggested the full launch reaction change and the jump cancel as an safe-alternative in case the reaction would be a problem to program *a while back*. I had left these changes on a thread for *a while ago* thinking these were the only ways *at the time* he could get a combo off up grab without completely overhauling his up grab mechanic/system or doing some special case change (as you said). Then you confirmed with me that the reaction change wouldn’t work at all and that jump cancel is possible, but it wouldn’t give him much combo potential.

    I think SSM would consider what ppl said if they were specific, so I wanted to know the exact change that would be necessary for them to make it possible to aF1 combo off up grab, so I could suggest it.

  12. _LightSage
    March 9th, 2014 at 10:00 | #12

    Sorry about this, but this other question i’m about to ask came up after I submitted my comment. Now I want to get a little insight on Jak’s dashing punch AKA Forward+square or S1.

    First let me say that this move causes a stagger kneel reaction, which you know already know, and that these reactions usually gain 20AP with Jak’s being the only literal exception in this game. Every other stagger move used by others gain 20AP. Now, i’m more than sure this is because the move acts as a jab (moves known to gain 5AP) at the same-time as well, am I right? Now here’s my suggestion and alternative suggestion respectively.

    Primary explanation & suggestion: Expl- Jak is a very combo-light character and can’t do anything else after the dashing punch but a tight Spinkick/N1 or uppercut/U1, (but known in the combo featuring the dashing punch as N1) which are both ‘combo enders’ and nothing else can be used afterwards. Jak’s AP gain is also low. Sugge- Buff AP gain up to 10AP, so that it’s ‘somewhat’ still representing a jab move and representing a weaker version of a stagger reaction-move. So somewhat like a fusion that tries it’s best at representing both aspects of the move.

    Alternative explanation & suggestion: Expl- Same as above. Sugge- Buff AP gain to 20AP (so it can gain 20AP like all stagger reaction moves). This is basically just to make up for the multiple (3) flaws & cons behind the dashing punch overall and it’s suggestion. So which suggestion would you prefer or like best?

  13. bc1910
    March 9th, 2014 at 15:01 | #13

    Hey Maj, could I get a little insight from you about the stages in this game? Currently the 1v1 tournament stagelist is being heavily debated. Most players, including me, feel that 1v1 is much better and more fun with smaller stages such as Practice Small 1, Practice Small 2, Dojo and San Francisco. A small minority continue to exist who feel the previous stagelist (which included massive stages like Metropolis, Hades and Practice Medium 1) is better for this game type. Unsurpsingly, the minority tends to be players who use zoners and other characters who like to run away all match, though I won’t name the characters.

    Do you think it’s sensible to have 1v1 matches on smaller stages? You mentioned earlier while you were talking about dashes that Dreamscape and other big maps were intended for FFA gameplay. With large maps, since there’s no timer 1v1 matches often come down to running away and chasing people down for several minutes. Conversely if there was a timer, characters with great mobility like the Coles, Sly and Raiden could just get one kill then run the time down, so I think it’s better to just use smaller stages for 1v1 than add a timer. To be fair, we could probably enforce stalling rules to stop players from just getting one kill and running, but I digress.

    Do you think smaller maps are sensible for 1v1? What kinds of maps did you guys have in mind for 1v1 during development?

  14. Bamsama
    March 10th, 2014 at 10:37 | #14

    Jaks stop hounding the man; go ask Santa Monica these things. Theyve read our community stuff; iono why you guys can’t relax. Its always jak mains.Im sure Santa Monica got the memo already the first already; just relax.

  15. _LightSage
    March 10th, 2014 at 13:03 | #15

    Bamsama :
    Jaks stop hounding the man; go ask Santa Monica these things. Theyve read our community stuff; iono why you guys can’t relax. Its always jak mains.Im sure Santa Monica got the memo already the first already; just relax.

    But it’s ok for you and others to hound him with general game changes and stuff regarding high and top tiers? In-fact you’re one of the guys with the most post here, so you kind of have no right to make that statement. There are simply stuff I want to know, so i’m asking, especially since I haven’t been here in months. Have you forgotten that? I have no idea why you both brought up and both suggested I talk to SSM when it’s common sense that they won’t talk to us. I’m asking Maj these things for my personal knowledge and so I can know why certain things didn’t happen a certain way and if certain things can be done a certain other way. If they can’t then not only do I learn something, but it decreases my ignorance on his character and other things at the sametime.

    I am taking advantage of a former game designer’s choice to talk to us players/fans of the game. There is literally no-one else to talk to besides Maj, otherwise I would be talking to them as well. The sound, animation, design, etc people don’t have their contact information listed and they most likely won’t reply if they were contacted.

    Going by the forums, with the trolls around, i’m sure SSM didn’t get anything. I’m sure they just see Jak as a typical low tier character who needs a buff as opposed to some serious attention. The forums are are much too troll’ish to make it perfectly prominent that any character needs serious attention. There are some serious haters out there and none of them are supporting Jak the way he should be. Majority of the overall community knows Jak is among the top 2 worst characters in the game… but there are a lot of trolls who purposely are saying things like Jak is OP. With the current capacity of non-troll and trolls on the forums (*which SSM are paying the most attention to*, Jak is not looking as bad as he should, which is why I said typical low tier who needs a buff.

    It’s also not my fault that another Jak main choose to start a conversation with Maj when I started one with Maj before him.

  16. bc1910
    March 10th, 2014 at 13:41 | #16

    I don’t wish for this to turn nasty but I feel the need to say that hounding is extremely different to extended discussion. Maj has already said he doesn’t have much to say regarding your essays on Jak.

  17. _LightSage
    March 10th, 2014 at 15:22 | #17

    bc1910 :
    I don’t wish for this to turn nasty but I feel the need to say that hounding is extremely different to extended discussion. Maj has already said he doesn’t have much to say regarding your essays on Jak.

    So when Jak discussions arise, it’s hounding, but when other discussions unrelated to Jak occur, it’s all nice, fair and not hounding? Ok.

    Well let’s see… I wouldn’t know ‘the limits’ of his knowledge on Jak unless I ask right?? I’m seeing what he CAN answer. It’s just best if we all honestly just mind our own conversations unless y’all having something to contribute.

  18. March 10th, 2014 at 17:05 | #18

    Guys, there’s no need for this. I’ll answer as much as i can. If someone asks an annoying question, i might procrastinate a little bit longer before answering, but that’s about it.

    Irokex: Dante was definitely tricky to balance. His ground attacks went through a number of iterations to remove obviously problematic loops. But he ended up at a pretty decent place, especially after we let him turn around during Squares and cancel them into Triangles on block.

    And in fairness, we knew about Dante’s empty cancel pretty early on. It could’ve been removed and i think he would’ve stayed competitive, but that would’ve made him much more runaway oriented. He still builds a ton of AP even without his crumple loops, so i don’t think it’s entirely accurate to say that it’s the only reason he’s competitive.

    Or his empty cancels could’ve been taken away and replaced with some other buff, but people seemed to enjoy them so we figured it was fine to leave Dante as an unusually technical character. After all, the DMC series is probably the most technically demanding action game series out there. So if anyone was gonna appreciate an execution-heavy combo character, it would be Dante players.

    As for FFA, he does have a pretty good lvl3 super and his combos allow him to move around a lot, so he’s not as much of an easy target as Sir Daniel for example. In fact i don’t even think Dante needs buffs to be competitive in FFA. He’s pretty good now. It’s just that a couple of characters genrate AP at slightly troublesome rates.

    LightSage: Jak’s F+Square should’ve always generated 10 AP. Generally, cancelable attacks are supposed to generate half the normal amount of AP for that reaction, then the finisher is supposed to generate the full amount.

    Jak’s F+Square causes a stagger kneel reaction (normally 20 AP) and its follow-up causes a launch reaction (normally 20 AP), so F+Square -> Square should generate 10+20 AP. The fact that F+Square only generates 5 AP is purely an oversight.

    bc1910: I think small stages make sense for 1v1. I just wish you guys would play on more colorful stages than the practice ones, but i understand why they’re convenient. Personally my 1v1 list would include 2-3 small stages, 1-2 medium sized stages, and one large stage for variety.

    I’d also try to include as many arted stages as possible, like using Rival Arena instead of Practice Small 1. And i’d try to include at least two stages with platforms, because they make things interesting; maybe Pratice Small 1, San Francisco, and Hades.

    Although honestly i don’t like the Practice Small stages much because i don’t think the camera goes up high enough. A lot of characters can float up there during combos and you can’t see what you’re doing at all.

  19. _LightSage
    March 10th, 2014 at 21:02 | #19

    Alright thx Maj. I’ve also agree with the 10AP. This has been my primary suggestion since before even certain other patches released actually. I’ve been aware of this oversight for quite sometime. Your point on the follow up makes a lot of sense as I considered that as well. Making progress here.

    Now.. only “1 aspect” regarding D3/Down+Circle. Now before I get into the full charge, I just want to make it clear that i’m aware that the full charge reaction causes a launch reaction, which of course are known for their 20AP gain. With that said… does the “full charge” not gain additional AP because of it’s reaction being 20AP relevant or was this an oversight as well? And a secondary question. Would you personally allow it so that the full charge gains additional AP?

  20. bc1910
    March 11th, 2014 at 11:04 | #20

    Great, thanks for your input. The only reason we don’t use Rival Arena instead of Practice Small 1 is that some players have reported framerate drops and slowdown whilst playing on Rival Arena. Practice Small 1 does the same job and works fine for everyone. Most of us prefer arted stages too though.

    That kind of stagelist makes a lot of sense to me. I think we’d use Rival/Practice Small 2/Dojo for small stages, Sanfran/Practice Medium 1 for the medium stages and Hades for the large stage. Although Practice Medium 1 is a bit on the large side, nor is it arted, so some kind of replacement for that would be fine.

  21. March 14th, 2014 at 00:05 | #21

    LightSage: I don’t think it was an oversight. If you want Jak’s charged D+Circle to eject, you can ask for an increase to 30 AP. But the full launch reaction allows Jak to juggle additional moves, and the 20 AP is enough for a combo starter. Plus that thing’s unblockable. Personally i think it’s fine as is.

    bc1910: Sounds like a plan. Too bad there aren’t more small stages to choose from, but it’s hard to justify making those when you’re thinking about FFA. Dojo gets pretty cramped with four players on the map.

  22. _LightSage
    March 14th, 2014 at 05:23 | #22

    No I don’t want it to eject. That would mess up Jak quite a bit. I don’t know what happened, but it wasn’t until ‘you’ said it that, that I realized an exception (probably) couldn’t happen. I thought an exception could be made this entire time, because if you think about it, for a move to have a stronger fire than it’s primary fire by holding down the trigger/button, you would think you should get more AP.. since it is a more powerful blast than the primary fire. But I know most exceptions i’m talking about are made through combos.

    My other concern is the fact that when full charged it doesn’t beat 20AP based super armored moves which seems a bit unrealistic, especially for this move – 20AP just seems insufficient for a ‘full charge’ IMO. I won’t mention projectile collisions, because I’ve tested offline several months ago that netcode allows MANY projectiles to not be destroyed by this move un-charged and full charged along with a few of his other moves, so offline is fine for projectiles. I’m assuming an 5AP increase for the full charge is unnecessary and pointless from a game designer’s perspective right?

    ‘Overall’ I mostly think it’s fine to. One thing I will say is that I miss the un-charged 360 hitbox/aoe. That combo that Jak had that took adv of that effect was his best mid-screen combo.

  23. bc1910
    March 14th, 2014 at 07:36 | #23

    Speaking of moves that build strange amounts of AP, do you have any idea what causes Sackboy’s Neutral Triangle to build 20 AP Maj? There’s an odd glitch where the AP bar will display “10”, and the game considers the jam to build 10 in most instances such as combos. For example, ending an 80 AP combo with jam won’t cause the combo to burst, since the game considers the combo to have built 90 AP rather than 100 AP.

    However, the move does actually build 20 AP. You can easily test this by throwing jam at a training dummy until Sackboy hits Level 1. With his Level 1 cost at 125 AP it should take 13 jam throws, right? Because the jam actually builds 20 AP, it only takes 7 jam throws to get Sackboy to Level 1. This glitch seems to have been added in patch 1.10, since after the emergency Sackboy nerfs the jam built 10 AP as was intended.

  24. March 15th, 2014 at 00:15 | #24

    LightSage: Jak’s D+Circle isn’t the only case of charged moves generating the same amount of AP as their uncharged versions. Kratos’ D+Circle is the same way, and Spike’s F+Circle actually loses AP if you charge it all the way.

    It’s just how the reactions work out sometimes. I bet a lot of other players would give up 10 AP to replace one of their characters’ charged eject moves with a launch reaction.

    bc1910: That’s very strange. I bet what’s happening is somehow the initial impact is scripted as a twitch attack that generates 10 AP. If that was the case, it would show up on the AP bar for 1 frame before the 10 AP from the explosion replaces it.

    If you combo into Sackboy’s neutral Triangle, the twitch hit probably counts on the AP bar the same way as Sweet Tooth’s flame does when it connects during a reaction. And it wouldn’t count against the AP burst limit because twitch reactions never do.

    Anyway if that initial hit is somehow essential for the projectile to function properly, then its AP gain should be reduced to 0.

  25. _LightSage
    March 15th, 2014 at 05:26 | #25

    Yeah Maj I already knew about that/those. I should have carefully wrote what I previously said better.

  26. Grashi
    March 16th, 2014 at 08:15 | #26

    So, why was the decision to spawn items only in certain areas of the stage? Would it not have made more sense or feed more into the chaos to spawn them randomly in the map or near the player action?

    Without Hazards such as on Metro conveyor delivery belt, it kind of limits characters who can pick up items even when no one really knows what they’re doing. Characters like Tooth and Kratos, even in the beta, sort of dominated the item spawn area just because they could send players flying away if they ever got too close. If they knew to camp them, at least.

    Also, was a super competitive focused stage ever planned? Something completely neutral, or were the training stages meant to be that?

  27. March 17th, 2014 at 23:45 | #27

    Letting items spawn anywhere caused too many bugs, so there needed to be some limitations. Plus allowing level designers to choose item spawn points instead of leaving it up to chance usually leads to better gameplay the vast majority of the time. Anyway it was just something that had to be done.

    As for stages, we tried a bunch of different things. You never really know which stage is going to be competitive. All you can do is include a bunch of different configurations. The players will (eventually) decide which ones happen to be the most fair to the largest number of characters.

    If you think about it, every PASBR stage has two different versions – with and without hazards. If you include the practice stages, that’s a lot of chances for you guys to find something that works at every evolutionary step of the metagame. There’s not much more we could’ve done.

    I mean, let’s take Heihachi vs Sackboy. Unless every stage is completely identical, each of those characters will have opposing preferences. Even if the only difference is that one stage is 10% wider than the other, Sackboy will prefer the bigger map and Heihachi the smaller.

    So which stage is more “competitive” in that scenario? Well, it depends on which of those two characters turns out to be strongest. Generally the community leans toward whichever map helps even out the matchup. (Of course, that’s assuming neither stage enables some exploit that forces the issue.)

    So the way i look at it, variety was the only logical solution. And PASBR stages are certainly varied.

  28. Grashi
    March 19th, 2014 at 15:57 | #28

    Hm. So, say the whole incident didn’t happen and Superbot went on to port PSAS to PS4, or create a new version from the ground up to the PS4. With the new hardware, what would you include?

    I don’t know if you’ve had a chance to do any development on it, really…but it seems like it could be great, right? Right?

  29. March 20th, 2014 at 23:54 | #29

    Yeah, it would’ve been cool to keep going. We could’ve added more characters, more stages, more features, etc. etc. but i’d be happiest about the opportunity to continue refining the combat system. It can always be more polished, you know?

    And i think the single-player content could’ve been a lot better. It would’ve been fun to come up with creative ways to make it all deeper and more interesting – especially the tutorials and combat trials. But honestly it’s pretty much impossible to get that stuff right the first time around. It’s way more feasible in a sequel, for numerous logistical reasons.

  30. Grashi
    March 21st, 2014 at 10:56 | #30

    Yeah, we were just talking about that. The conbat trials. With this patch, it’s kind of abwonder if the ones in place will even still work. Who knows though.maybe between this and smash, other opportunities for the genre will arise. I wouldn’t be shocked if an indie team hopped on for a little something. Regardless, for the firstgo around it was fun. Issues aside, some good experiences i’ll never forget have come from psas. Met some interesting people, had some stories. Learned some too.

  31. Irokex
    March 25th, 2014 at 07:12 | #31

    I know this might sound weird, but I’m kind of glad that the patch is taking so long to come out. While there are some problems that need to be addressed, the meta has developed dramatically since pre-1.10. It’ll be interesting to see how the All Stars community reacts to the changes in the patch.

    Originally when I came here, I essentially wanted to complain about my characters, Dante in particular. I constantly compared him to the top tiers and balanced him according to their tools, assuming that would solve everything. Having to wait this long for the patch has given me the chance to realize that a character shouldn’t be buffed if I’m not properly playing my character to their fullest potential. Looking a little deeper, I’m glad about the amount of work that you guys put into balancing most of the cast. Of course there are some exceptions to this, but that’s destined to happen in a fighting game, especially one that was focused on FFA instead of 1v1. Dante could have easily been a very broken character and you guys prevented a lot of stupid stuff for him. While I still think his moveset could use some tweaking here and there, he’s not a terribly balanced character.

    I guess what I’m trying to say is thanks for the effort you guys put into this game. I know we sometimes give you guys flack about some stupid stuff, but honestly, I’m sure that the community as a whole appreciates all the work you guys did.

  32. Smash and Crash
    March 26th, 2014 at 13:46 | #32

    Hey there maj. I’ve mained PaRappa since beta, and I found a lot of level 1 kill confirms with him. Based on what you know, are there any that haven’t been discovered yet? And if so, what are the inputs? Hope you answer my question.

  33. Grashi
    March 28th, 2014 at 16:26 | #33

    Say, Maj. Something has had me wondering for a while. How does the hosting system works? Like how does the game decide who hosts?

    It seems like in Quick Match/tournament it picks whoever has the best connection. In private match it gives it to the room owner. But the exception being when someone using local co-op on consoles, it ALWAYS give the host to those people.

    Is this about right?

  34. khknight
    April 2nd, 2014 at 18:06 | #34

    Heres the first set of patch notes by SSM! What do u think maj?

    Every character’s throw attempts have been standardized to 9 startup frames, 3 active frames, and 18 recovery frames, with the exception of Isaac, Kat, and Ratchet.

    The minimum effective range of throws has been increased to 1 meter (previously 0.75m) for all characters except Parappa, Sackboy, and Toro.

    In online matches, jumping out of an opponent’s throw attempt is now resolved through the throw clash system.

    Every character’s air dodge has been standardized to 27 invincible frames followed by 9 vulnerable frames (previously 29 invincible plus 7 vulnerable).

    Every character’s directional rolls have been standardized to 18 invincible frames followed by 16 vulnerable frames, with the exception of Fat Princess, Spike, and Zeus.

    Characters can no longer perform actions for 3 frames after landing from air idle.

    Characters can no longer double jump during down tech.

    Landing during down tech or down tech canceled into air dodge now triggers the same recovery as landing during an attack.

    Getting hit in the air no longer renews a character’s double jump ability.

  35. April 4th, 2014 at 18:44 | #35

    Irokex: Thank you sir, i appreciate the kind words and i’m glad you had a good experience with the game. It certainly took a lot of effort from a lot of very talented people.

    Smash and Crash: I’m sure Parappa has a few situational lvl1 confirms that haven’t been found yet, but at this point you guys are extremely well-versed in what’s possible within PASBR’s combo system. As a combo video maker, i could probably find some stuff that the community might not have seen before, but obviously none of that stuff would be practical or have any impact on the competitive metagame.

    Grashi: As far as i know, the host is randomly chosen in ranked matches. There might be some bias towards who has the best connection, but i don’t remember hearing anything about that. I thought it was randomly selected in private matches too, but maybe the room owner or local co-op players do get priority. Honestly i wasn’t involved in any of those conversations. You’d have to ask one of our network programmers.

    khknight: Looks good to me :)

  36. khknight
    April 5th, 2014 at 04:48 | #36


    They just released another set of notes with some big changes. Do u think SB would of handled the patch this way if they were making it? Like would it fit with their design philosophies?

  37. April 8th, 2014 at 22:10 | #37

    Well, i can’t speak for anyone else but it’s certainly how i would’ve handled it!

  38. bc1910
    April 9th, 2014 at 15:40 | #38

    I’ll kick things off by saying I think Raiden is absolutely perfect, and I love his changes. Couldn’t have done better myself. Thanks a lot for all your hard work!

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