438 thoughts on “PASBR Patch 1.10 Balance Changes”

1. dabuz April 3, 2013 at 7:26 am

   I plan to have a list of 10 MAJOR issues in this game, including game breaking flaws (Discussed and agreed upon by the community) up later today or tomorrow, but in the meantime i’d like to bring discussion to the 6 characters who I consider completely unviable in competitive settings:

   Radec: He does his job ok at sniping and playing super keepaway when left alone for extended periods of time. The problem with Radec is that he has zero options to reliably deal with any form of pressure because his projectiles aren’t made for covering options or dealing with aggression without setup time for the shock grenade or trap laser. If his grenades were to explode on contact with the opponent he would be able to correctly handle pressure while not compromising his mid or long range game.

   Toro: This little guy RELIED on dive kick to do much of anything in 1v1, 2v2, and FFA, the nerf was way too big and took away his best option…that divekick. This showed me that he has a problem similar to Jak, his other tools (Stances) just aren’t good enough to justify using. He either needs his pre-patch dive kick back or buffs to the startup + cooldown of his fighter stance moves (So he can compete at close and mid range) and an AP increase to his ninja stance moves (so he can play passively and still build up good AP).

   Sweet Tooth: Bombrider is the best and most knowledgable ST, so I trust a lot of what he says regarding what’s wrong with the character, but my approach to him would be completely different. He can’t fight characters who can keep him from getting into his melee range, and does fairly well vs. characters he can get into melee range against. If Sweet Tooth were given an increase in movement speed (both grounded and aerial by about 30%) along with 10 AP of Super Armor on his forward square (the mini dash), ST would be able to more successfully fight characters that outrange or projectile camp him while not actually making him stronger in melee range. This would also have the least significant effect on FFA (due to FFA’s crazy and close ranged madness) so he keeps his balance there while making him a viable choice for 2v2 and 1v1.

   Jak: There’s been enough posts about Jak here that explain his flaws better than I can so i’ll leave it up to someone else to summarize what’s wrong about Jak.

   Sir Dan: He just doesn’t build up enough AP or have enough options to control a big zone. Giving him a 5 AP buff to every square move (15-25 AP total buff to his standard combos), buffing the startup and cooldown of his hammer (Change knockback if this gives him a confirm into level 1), increasing the width of his dragon potion, giving chicken leg enough of a startup buff to use it as a combo ender and spacing move, and giving his shield dash 30 AP of Super armor would make him usable because it buffs his style of controlling a large area that works best for FFA and 2v2 while helping him in 1v1. The idea is that now he has a lot more options to make him control zones in a non-linear way so he can build up to level 2/3 more reliably, be a significant presence outside of axe, and keep him from being a level 1 confirming duelist.

   Spike: The electric shock -> level 1 was really important for Spike so he could play an aggressive zoning and stage control game while threatening opponents that made a mistake. Now the spacing of this confirm requires Spike to be at a height so low that he might as well not have the confirm, but his level 2 and 3 aren’t viable things to rely on when Spike doesn’t build up much AP and he can’t multikill any players. Just by giving his electric shock more stun, enough to confirm at pre-patch height, he would be fairly balanced in every mode.
2. bombrider April 3, 2013 at 8:34 am

   I can see how increasing Sweet Tooth’s movement speed and giving him 10 AP armor on his F+Square could help his performance. He does have a lot of difficulty in dealing with really strong zoning characters. Although some of the zoning characters’s options are more powerful than 10 AP so there would still be a degree of difficulty for Sweet Tooth to get within melee range of those characters (though those proposed changes would make it significantly more manageable).
3. Camjo-Z April 3, 2013 at 2:30 pm

   @dabuz You have some good suggestions, and I’d also add that some of Spike’s moves could stand to be buffed in some fashion. His clubs, Bananarang, and Radar are all fine, but is there ANY point to the Super Hoop, Magic Punch, Slingshot, or RC Satellite? All of them require Spike to stand around in one spot for a while with only the benefit of getting a meager amount of AP and (in the case of RC and Punch) a Level 1 confirm off an idiot opponent who’s dumb enough to stick around long enough to be hit. I can’t think of any reason he has these moves other than to fill up his moveset.

   His Teleport could also use a buff since it doesn’t do damage like Zeus’s, can’t go anywhere on the stage like Sackboy’s, and doesn’t have fast startup/allow you to attack immediately afterwards like Sly’s… making it the worst in the game.
4. dabuz April 3, 2013 at 3:02 pm

   Ok, so after discussing with the communities of Reddit, Playstationallstarsbattleroyale.com, allstararena, pastastadiumleagues, playstationallstarsarena, Crouchingfierce’s allstars stream (hits about 60 people when it’s on), and one of the bigger allstars skype groups we decided these are the 10 biggest issues or categories of issues that need a fix. This list targets mostly game functionality and glitches while approaching extreme imbalance from the perspective of casual and competitive players. I didn’t include my opinion of the 6 weakest characters here because while the problems with those 6 characters are important, they aren’t as important as game functionality.

   Maj, please feel free to edit W/E before trying to forward it to SSM.

   1: Zeus’s roll allows him to maintain almost infinite invincibility, enough to avoid most level 3s by spamming roll and over, giving him more roll cooldown would fix a major issue. This is an easy fix.

   2: Fix Sly’s lack of landing lag, he currently has the same landing lag as before patch 1.10, but he is supposed to have landing lag equivalent to the other characters post patch 1.10. This should be the easiest oversight to fix.

   3: Ranked mode: Fix the belt system so that players get their titles after a season ends. Add some form of 1v1 matchmaking, even if not ranked. Host migration when a player quits would also be a major benefit to this game.

   4: Many supers are glitchy: Drake, Isaac, Zeus all have level 3s that will freeze the game occasionally. Ratchet’s level 3 can glitch and not fire shots where aimed. Isaac’s level 1 is glitchy online and will randomly turn around or aim on it’s own. Sir Dan’s level 2 will not home correctly in lag. Big Daddy has a level 2 glitch where if he kills an opponent while they throw, the opponent will not respawn. Level 2s and level 3s can be interrupted only online when hit during certain points in the startup. Level 1s will sometimes activate twice in a row online without the input of the user for the second level 1.

   5: Certain projectiles will become invisible due to online. This includes but is not limited to the Coles’ tethers, Isaac’s buzz blade, Emmett’s turrets on spawn and turret shots.

   6: Fix all of Kat’s glitches involving debris caused by being online or having more than 1 kat with debris in the field. This includes invisible debris, debris that floats randomly around the stage, frame drops, and debris with no hitboxes. Kat’s grab can cause people to fly out of the map or become stuck in a permaneant stasis by being hit while in the throw. Kat’s jab is literally the best move, it needs a startup increase by a significant amount (10 frames).

   7: Fix the character swap glitch that causes players to be given a random character when going into a ranked or quick match.

   8: “Handcuff glitch”: This varies by character, but certain characters are able to stick the opponent onto themselves (Includes but not limited to Emmett, Hachi, Isaac, Toro, the sackbot item), this removes all mobility from the afflicted character. Generally this involves grabbing while doing another animation, causing the grab animation to not finish.

   9: When being killed or activating a super, some characters may spawn or leave their super state and be unable to use their supers.

   10: Fix Rival Arena’s frame drop problems, this is an issue online and offline.
5. bombrider April 3, 2013 at 8:09 pm

   The lamest thing in this game I’ve seen was Drake’s Run ‘N Gun Loop. I was so happy when it got removed…

   Now Isaac has a Loop with his Neutral Square gun.

   I don’t even mind Dante’s loop…it takes execution, skill, and whiffing attacks are very risky for Dante. Isaac’s Loop (just like prepatched Drake’s Loop) just makes this game stale for me. Very surprisingly how every bullet generates 10 AP instead of 5 as well. Also, his land mine being indestructible online just means pure melee characters have no options.

   …sigh. I thought I’d never have to see Drake’s Loop again. Its back with avengeance. This one gives kill confirms too (Isaac even has a level 1 kill confirm from his grab too).
6. dabuz April 4, 2013 at 12:19 pm

   @Camjo-Z
   I have to disagree on most of that. The teleport and RC satellite both have uses. Slingshot is a nice way to safely poke. Punch is definitely kind of iffy but has some uses after setting up a banana trap. The hula hoop is the one move which really does deserve -something-.

   @Bombrider: Yeeeep, Isaac’s gun loop is REALLY stupid, it gives a lot of AP and the plasma cutter itself can limit so many options with ease. I think the mine is exponentially worse tho.
7. bombrider April 4, 2013 at 1:32 pm

   @Dabuz

   Indeed…the mine is really stupid as well. Especially online when it becomes indestructible (almost). I really hate this character…lol.
8. saerreng April 4, 2013 at 3:00 pm

   Hi Maj,

   if you would be so kind, please add Narikos Aerial Down Triangle somewhere.
   I am scared to use that move online since most of the time, i am getting myself in a disadvantage situation.

   On my screen i see a hard knockdown but the opponent is still in a crumble.
   The result is a teleport after his or her action.
   I do not see a roll or delayed wakeup or even a wakeup option at all. I see him after his option but not the option itself.

   And it is not my fault either, it occurs only online and for all Nariko players.

   Thanks.

   P.s. congratulations for that platinum trophy.
   Oh and are you excited for cvs4 as a ps4 launch title ? :D. (or the game in general).
   Where’s Mahvel Baybee?
9. Maj Post authorApril 4, 2013 at 3:05 pm

   dabuz: Okay, i sent out that top-10 list along with your bottom-6 analysis. I hope some of your requests get addressed. Although to let you know, some of that stuff seems extremely unlikely due to the enormous amount of work required – especially adding new ranked modes and fixing some of those special-case netcode issues.

   Leran: I agree with you regarding Jak’s U+Triangle. If it was up to me, i’d probably let it generate 10 or 15 AP instead of 5. The main reason it doesn’t is because we have certain standards for AP gain that we were trying to preserve for consistency. If we had a few more patches lined up, you probably would’ve seen more exceptions like that being introduced.

   Actually there seems to be a lot of confusion about AP values, so maybe i should explain those guidelines. We found that matching reactions to consistent AP values helps create a common language that makes the flow of the game easier to grasp.

   The general rule for standalone attacks is that twitch reactions generate 5 AP; light reactions generate 10 AP; stagger, crumple, launch, and flatten reactions generate 20 AP; eject reactions generate 30 AP; and miscellaneous status effects such as shock, stun, antigrav, etc. generate 5 AP.

   In the case of automatic multi-hit attacks, the total AP amount should add up to what the final reaction is supposed to cause. For example, Radec’s F+Square ejects and generates 10+20 AP and Dante’s U+Circle launches and generates 3+5+5+5+2 AP.

   Manual chains have the loosest guidelines, but the last attack usually generates its normal amount of AP and every prior attack usually generates half its normal amount of AP. For example, Spike’s neutral Square chain causes light, light, eject reactions and generates 5+5+30 AP. (The second Square acts as an automatic two-hitter that generates 2+3 AP.)

   So there is some semblance of rhyme and reason behind how our AP values are assigned. Obviously there’s a fair number of exceptions too, but we tried those avoid making them as much as possible.

   And i’m not sure where the decision to balance for FFA originated, but it was the logical choice. I’m a firm believer that the best way to help a community grow is to make the game more accessible. In this case that meant making sure everyone stays happy with FFA, because that’s most people’s first experience with the game.

   saerreng: Sorry sir, i already sent it out. Are you sure that the opponent is seeing a crumple reaction on their screen? As for CvS3 on PS4, the FGC may as well rename April Fools’ Day to CvS3 Heartbreat Day.
10. saerreng April 4, 2013 at 3:13 pm

    Mh, damn :D.

    Yeah, i am not the only one who mentioned or experienced it.

    http://www.playstationallstarsarena.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1140

    For a overall view.

    Guess i should tweet/comment on Seths twitter?.

    Nonetheless, thanks for the work Maj.
11. dabuz April 4, 2013 at 6:05 pm

    @Maj: Thank you very much. If SSM implements even a few of the changes on the list, it will be amazing! ^^
12. Lance_Drake April 5, 2013 at 5:15 am

    Glad to see you think otherwise about the Peace Maker, Maj. It’s pretty lame seeing one of Jak’s most powerful weapons reduced to a lame stun move that barely gains any AP. Personally, I’d have liked it to eject at 30 AP or something, like Ratchet’s Warmonger.
13. Maj Post authorApril 5, 2013 at 1:52 pm

    That would certainly be the quick ‘n lazy solution, but i’d be hesitant to take that route. Differentiating Ratchet’s and Jak’s combat personas was a challenge and i think their combat designers did a good job. Giving them the same exact anti-air move with the same exact trajectory and the same reaction would be a major step backward.

    Again, you have to look at the big picture. Adding/preserving gameplay diversity in the character roster is worth more than making one particular attack achieve maximum coolness in a vacuum.

    Anyway i think shock reactions can be very effective in PASBR because they keep an opponent locked in place for a long time. They’re basically the only type of hitstun that doesn’t elevate opponents higher and higher. You can create some nasty 2v2 combos using Jak’s U+Triangle. To me the only problem is its low AP gain.
14. Lance_Drake April 6, 2013 at 8:35 am

    Sure, it can be handy in 2v2, but that’s one game mode. What about balancing for FFA? It’s certainly harder to combo in FFA, so sometimes you really just need to fire it off once or twice, then reposition yourself.

    But what really gets me is that Jak has some of the lowest combo potential in the game, and yet he has 2 stun moves that he cannot do much with, that being the Peace Maker and Mass Inverter. They’re not even very good stun moves to use in the first place.

    Compare these to Sackboy’s electric trap. It gains the same AP, but it’s great for defense against combo driven and close range characters, and can be used in many of Sackboy’s combos, some of which give an AP burst. In that case, it’s clear what the tradeoff is. In Jak’s case, it’s really not much, especially considering how tough (specifically the Peace Maker) is to use, given the start up time and the only anti-air use.

    So yeah, buffing it to 10 or 15 AP? I’d be happy, even if it’s way off canon from the real gun. Least then it could be a good move on its own, since it’s pretty situational to use in the first place.

    Beam Reflexor is the only other move that’s truly bugging me right now. I really have to ask, why is the AP per shot on this thing so low? It’s already pretty situational with its awkward angle and limited range. I could understand it being 5 AP per shot if it kept the property where it bounced between targets, which would make it an ideal FFA move, but that was removed before the game even came out, with no such compensation for its removal. Were you guys just rushed when you had to rebalance Jak for the full game? It certainly seems that way for some of his moves.
15. spola1994 April 7, 2013 at 11:53 am

    Hey Maj! Sorry if I bother you, I think a lot of people asked you guys that, but we have been left in the dark on that topic… What has been the problem in adding Crash Bandicoot? Sure it was up to his IP holders, but I think it is so irrational not giving you one of the most requested character… I love the game as it is anyhow, I see the effort you put in and I love the characters you choose… Hope to see more DLC from Santa Monica
16. Maj Post authorApril 8, 2013 at 12:11 pm

    Lance_Drake: Well, Jak’s D+Triangle is one of those troublesome attacks that could easily dominate the game. It might seem underpowered now, but trust me, a rapid-fire bouncing projectile is the last thing you want to have overpowered.

    I don’t understand what you mean about “compensation.” We toned down countless moves from their initial designs when we found they were way too good. That’s just a natural part of game development. It had nothing to do with being rushed.

    Anyway D+Triangle is situational, but what’s wrong with that? I’ve seen people come up with clever uses for it and some cool combos too. When you say “ideal FFA move” – that worries me because it seems like you want a single button to spam for the auto-win. That’s what that move used to be and it was problematic, so it had to be toned down.

    spola1994: Sorry sir, i don’t have any new information on that topic. It’s been discussed a thousand times over in every PASBR thread on the internet, so you guys probably know more details than i do.

    I know everyone wanted Crash in the game and so did our entire design team, but that kind of decision is many levels above my pay grade so i don’t even know what that conversation was like. All i know is it didn’t work out, but i have no idea why.
17. Lance_Drake April 8, 2013 at 9:51 pm

    It at least could have been more AP. There’s not much reason to use it when you can resort to other moves for much higher AP gain. The AP gain on it and the Blaster should have been the same.

    Oh, but now the Blaster is near useless thanks to the nerf it didn’t deserve. Knocking it down to 6 AP per shot would have been…okay…if you also didn’t completely neuter it and get rid of the eject roll, something Jak mains could utilize as a level 1 predict from a wake up.
18. Lance_Drake April 9, 2013 at 5:34 am

    Eh…sorry if I’m being…a bit nasty. It’s just very frustrating having waited 4 months and having thought of the most effective things to make your favorite character balanced, and then he takes a hit when he’s already mid-low tier. I’m sure Spike, Big Daddy, and and especially Nariko mains are feeling the same way.

    Meanwhile, some high tiers barely get knocked down, and some are even buffed, as if they needed to be better. It’s very frustrating. I’m really hoping Santa Monica can clean things up, but they seem rather focused on GoW: Ascension…
19. Fromundaman April 9, 2013 at 10:22 am

    Awwww… guess Dabuz didn’t see my suggestions for the changes too. A shame, because I can’t deal with Big Daddy’s increasing frame rate drops anymore.

    Here’s a list of a few other big bugs:

    -Big Daddy and Sir Dan also cause frame rate drops (This has gotten worse with the last 2 patches, especially the most recent one).

    -You can STILL glitch Dan’s level 3.

    -While I like the idea of host migration, it would probably be easier to take the MOBA approach and give penalties to people who quit too often in a period of time (For example, if you DC from a match more than 4 times in a 12 hour period, you get banned from public games for an hour. I just throwing random numbers out there, but you get the idea.)

    -Big Daddy’s level 2 still can cause bursts of lag, the no-respawn glitch (Character does not respawn on my screen, nor does it die on the opponent’s screen. It just becomes frozen in place and unable to take action. If a stage interacts with the person, then they can move again, gain AP from attacking me and even kill me, but they still won’t show up on my screen.), can cause some players to become invisible on Big Daddy’s screen, can cause slow respawns (Not a big bug by comparison, but it does hurt him since it makes getting 2 kills on a player much harder.). This one has also been happening more and more recently recently, and with the last patch it occurs roughly 1/3 of the time.
    I just saw this was mentioned in Dabuz’s list, I want to include that this glitch does NOT depend on the enemy throwing someone. The only consistent thing I’ve found about it as of 1.10 is that the opponent needs to be grounded. Before that it only ever occured when someone got up out of hard knockdown into a level 2 down triangle. Now it occurs off of any attack, but it does seem less likely to occur when killed by circle attacks.

    -Not sure if it’s a bug or just a really heavy nerf, but the super armor on air side square is nearly non-existent at this point.

    -Certain hitboxes sometimes don’t appear. The most notable offender I’ve found is Big Daddy’s air down square, which will sometimes just pass through opponents with no effect.

    -Sweet Tooth is sometimes unable to move after doing a level 1. (NOTE: As of 1.11 I have found this to be affecting a lot of other characters as well.)

    Lance: As a Big Daddy/Cole/Nariko player before 1.10, I definitely feel like I took a hit, but I want to say that Nariko was NOT low/mid tier. Up until 1.10, Nariko was taking top 3 in every 1v1 and 2v2 tournament, and she was showing up high in the ranked FFA leaderboards as well (Although admittedly with rage quitting allowing you to pad stats, that really doesn’t mean much.). That being said she was pretty easy mode in all game types if you knew how to use her.

    Maj: Unfortunately, Big Daddy is another story. I really wish you guys had had more time, money and a better work environment when making this last patch, because it’s obvious you guys had some great ideas, and you made some amazing changes with your last patch, but unfortunately Big Daddy was kind of destroyed.

    I have found 7-8 nerfs not mentioned in the patch notes, including the side triangle super armor which as we discussed before, makes sense since I used to be able to go straight from super armor to block, but unfortunately the hitstun on the move was not changed to compensate. What this means is that if I use grounded side triangle and charge through them without doing the second blow for whatever reason (To go through a mine, avoid being a sitting duck for another player, w/e), the opponent can recover and, for 3/4 of the cast, kill confirm me before my side triangle animation ends. That’s right, most of the characters in the game can KILL ME for successfully landing a hit against them.

    Here’s something I wrote about him on AllStarArena recently:

    “His tech chase game has heavily suffered from the slower startup on the ice, the AoE nerf to his down triangle and the decrease in active frames on his grab.

    His forward square, side triangle, air side triangle, and air forward square took Super armor nerfs, and I’m not sure about up and down square moves since I wasn’t forced to use them as much pre-patch. This means that some things have become COMPLETELY unsafe instead of a guessing game due to nerfed startup on Super Armor and there are some moves we simply cannot beat anymore (Like FP’s scepter) because the SA on moves that used to beat it starts too slow for us to actually get in range AND land the hit.

    Previous patches also nerfed his corner game. We also got the nerf on his air side triangle’s startup.

    There is also another nerf that hit that I will NOT go into which allows us to get KCed by almost every character in the game as a result of SUCCESSFULLY landing an attack on our opponent. That’s right, we can be killed for landing a hit now.

    As much as I love this character, I’m not really sure what he’s good for anymore. He used to be able to break through attacks, allowing him to save his partner in 2v2, break out of mixups and shield pressure, and all in all counter hits, but now that’s been nerfed to be unreliable against good opponents.
    he used to have a beastly tech chase game, keeping you on the ground and punishing you for attempting to get back to your feet. At this point, the only reason it even semi-works is because people still think it does, as that has gotten nerfed to hell and there is now at least one option that BD can’t cover at all. Even beyond that though, I now have to commit to one option, no longer having a real way to cover multiple options. So yeah, tech chasing’s out too…

    Surprisingly, despite the buff to our level 1, we’ve actually LOST confirms because of it, with the throw confirm no longer working. In exchange we’ve gotten some more setups, and more reliable ones, but they will never work against an opponent who knows how to escape them.

    Level 2 buff would be nice, except that now the level 2 glitches more than ever before, whether that be in the form of people not respawning at all, or people just taking longer to respawn, making getting 2 kills harder than it has ever been before.

    All in all, this character used to be a decent mid tier character who’s bad high tier matchups kept down. Now, he’s only mid tier because people haven’t figured out how to abuse his nerfs yet. When people figure out how easy it is to take advantage of these new changes, Big Daddy will be bottom 3 for sure. This character has never been worse.”

    I can see why a lot of what was changed was done, as he did have some kind of stupid properties (instant start up side square super armor, going from super armor to block on side triangle, a near unstoppable side square aerial, the ability to keep you on the ground for a very long time, sometimes taking a bar or more of meter through good use of tech chasing, etc.), but the thing is that he already wasn’t that great even with all of that. Taking that stuff away without giving anything back (Except, I admit, an AMAZING air down square now. I feel the hitbox got bigger on it in 1.10 as well. A shame it occasionally glitches and doesn’t have a hitbox.) just made him worse. On top of that his level 2 glitch, which I assume must be netcode related since patches seem to make it worse regardless of who releases it (Since 1.11 has made it exponentially more common) and his frame rate drops, which also got worse in 1.11, make playing him an exercise in futility.

    Sorry if I’m coming off kind of strong, but I’m probably one of 2 Big Daddy players, so I feel like I have to throw this out there somewhere, hopefully somewhere where people will care.

    I’ve said it before though and I’ll say it again: Thank you Maj for all the awesome work you guys did with this game. We wouldn’t complain/discuss/debate as much if we didn’t care about the product you have created. I also want to thank you for the fact that you’re STILL answering the community’s questions and using your connections to try and improve the game even now. For that, you have my heartfelt thanks.
20. Maj Post authorApril 9, 2013 at 12:08 pm

    Lance_Drake: It’s alright, i understand your frustration – even thought i can’t do anything about it. Like i said before, most of what i know about Jak’s changes comes from casual conversations with other designers. I wasn’t directly involved with implementing anything that happened to him, but i’m sure they were good decisions at the time – purely based on faith in our design team.

    I wish i could tell you why F+Triangle and D+Triangle don’t build more AP, but it wasn’t my call so i don’t really know. The only thing that bothered me about Jak was the way his F+Triangle was set up to cause an eject roll only when the victim was hit three times in a row. Personally i would’ve made the last bullet cause eject roll all the time, because i dislike having singular exceptions at the reactions level. That’s pretty much my one and only opinion on the matter, and it’s nothing more than a minor technical preference.

    Fromundaman: Man, i have no idea where those glitches came from. Frame drops, missing hitboxes, and failed respawns all sound like programming issues. I heard the old character swap glitch is back too? I can’t even begin to guess why those issues would get worse from v1.10 to v1.11 but hopefully some of it will get fixed in future patches.

    Unfortunately Big Daddy was another character that i wasn’t directly involved with, but from what i understand, most of his changes were bug fixes and polish. If he lost any major tech chase options as a result, it might’ve been an accidental oversight. Out of curiosity, how would you address his deficiencies to make him more viable against the current top tier without creating any 8-2 matchups in his favor?
21. Grashi April 9, 2013 at 3:38 pm

    So, I have a serious question. Why the stealth changes? I mean…over the majority of the patches, something was changed or resulted in something changing that was never addressed in the patch notes. This is something that I have never seen in another game, where the PLAYER has to find out what’s coming from the changes. But I can’t for the life of me figure out why.
22. Maj Post authorApril 9, 2013 at 4:59 pm

    Actually what you just described is pretty much the status quo. Most publishers don’t bother releasing patch notes and the few that do only list major changes. Maybe you just haven’t paid close enough attention to other fighting games?

    They’re not “stealth changes.” They’re minor bugs someone fixed without taking the time to write them down. It’s not ideal but it happens, and nine times out of ten, it makes the game better. It’s not like someone was secretly trying to nerf Big Daddy under the radar.
23. ProjectSeoul April 9, 2013 at 8:32 pm

    Hey guys, here is a video overview of Dante’s patch changes and another piece of tech that became available in 1.10.

    Dante 1.10 Patch Note Changes Overview:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1pU_tpeKHd4

    I was supposed to finish another video on Block Strings but got caught up with working with some others to make something bigger and better. During that time I found this…

    New Dante Angel Dash Hack Side Switch:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-wkiHrghX0Q

    Dante’s Hacker combo accepts directional input after attack input allowing Dante do switch directions on his first hit of his Neutral Square combo (even Neutral Circle) mid Angel Dash. This was not possible before 1.10.

    Thanks again Maj for the insight and communication with the community.
24. Fromundaman April 9, 2013 at 8:55 pm

    @Grashi: Actually, a LOT of other fighting games either don’t give patch notes or give incomplete patch notes. In some cases it’s to give players stuff to discover, in other cases it’s because they didn’t want to/have time to type out patch notes and in other cases the stuff left out may be an unintended side effect of another change that was made.

    @Maj: That’s a really tricky question. Big Daddy is a Super armored disable character, the kind which tends to either end up under or overpowered and putting them in a “sweet spot” is difficult.

    To properly explain what I think would need to be changed, I need to explain why it’s important and how the seemingly small nerfs affected him. If you don’t want to read this huge wall of text, skip straight to the proposed changes section.

    As of right now, I feel that Big Daddy’s most debilitating weakness is just how unsafe he is on block. The amount of blockstun on his moves hasn’t been changed to my knowledge, but the nerf to super armor start up, especially on grounded side square, prevents him from using almost immediate super armor to blow through counter-attacks.

    For example, before the patch, air side triangle>grounded side square was punishable by only a handful of attacks in the game since super armor would start so fast, or grabs, which ignored the super armor and hit long before the side square hitbox actually came out. Big Daddy could use a grab instead of side square if he predicted a grab to break it and be safe, or to grab if he predicts his side square would also be blocked. This created an on-block mix-up, giving him the opportunity to mindgame his way into being safe. This could also be applied to moves like air neutral circle, air side square, air down square, down triangle, neutral square or air side circle (Not all of these are unsafe on block, but the mix up was still usable for all of them).

    With the nerf to the side square armor, none of this is possible anymore since moves will connect before the armor kicks in, meaning just blocking then mashing your fastest attack will beat me out every time, leaving me very little room for mix ups or mindgames against a blocking opponent. My options have pretty much been reduced to air dodge>grab or try to hit their block and pray for the best.

    Air side triangle, one of Big Daddy’s main movement options and approach tools, is the biggest offender. This move got it’s startup nerfed, which while painful is kind of understandable, but it stayed horrendously unsafe on block while doing away with the tool that made it somewhat safe. So now I have an attack that’s 10 frames slower, still loses to projectiles, is horrendously unsafe on block, is one of my few good combo starters and is one of my only movement options.

    The other movement option (Other than jumping airdodge and slowly approaching SH shock plasmid, which are most of what I use now) is grounded side triangle, but the super armor at the end of that is gone as well while the hitstun stayed the same. This means that if I have to charge through someone who has any sort of trap on the ground, or there’s another opponent there too, or any other reason why I’d need to hold down triangle and charge through them without doing the second hit, a very large portion of the cast can outright kill me for doing so since they recover faster than I do in a very advantageous position (Low to the ground just above and behind me while I remain grounded).

    Between the changes to both of his charges, getting in on any type of zoner, or even non-zoners playing defensively, becomes borderline impossible, and against someone with a mine like ST, someone with good options out of block like Evil Cole, or god forbid, Isaac, who has both, you’re SoL. The changes to his approach options make him unable to even pretend to approach characters like that.

    Another issue is that with the nerf to his air side square’s super armor, Big Daddy has lost his ability to challenge characters with disjoincted aerials or aerials that come out faster than his do.

    For example, pre-patch I was able to try to beat out Fat Princess’ air neutral square if I predicted it or reacted fast enough and threw out an air side square to power through it and hit her. Unfortunately, this is no longer possible since my air side square super armor no longer lasts long enough to power through the hit AND get in range to hit her. What I mean is that if I want to power through the attack, I have to start the air side square so early that it will whiff. This leads to Big Daddy being unable to punish her in the air at all.

    Another example would be Parappa. His skateboard dive (I forget the input) doesn’t really have a disjoinct, but it does come out fast. I used to be able to either throw out an air side square to limit his diving options or react to the dive and use air side square to beat it out. Now that’s no longer possible. The super armor doesn’t come out fast enough to beat Parappa’s dive on reaction, and in order for me to super armor the move and hit him out of the dive I would need to start my move before Parappa starts his, then have him react to my attack with a mistimed dive.

    Our down triangle range also took a nerf, and the ice takes a little longer to freeze now, which when combined with the decreased active frames on his grab, make his tech chase game sub-par.

    Now that that’s out of the way, let me say I do understand why some of this was changed.

    -Grounded side square had an almost instant super armor (Can’t have taken more than 3-4 frames to start) that you could use to beat things and set up tech chases on reaction.

    -Air Side square had years of super armor, allowing it to beat out a LOT of aerials.

    -Down triangle got spammed a lot. It wasn’t smart to mindlessly spam it, and honestly it was not hard to beat, but because most people are bad it got nerfed. Still, if it was making the game not fun to the majority I can understand the change. Also it used to have a really stupid grab mix up on block, but the change to consecutive blockstun fixed that.

    -Side triangle used to be able to go from super armor to block, which was kind of stupid.

    -Air side triangle mix ups on block were ridiculous against some of the lower tier characters, while being almost completely ineffective against the higher tier ones.

    -His grab was active a ridiculously long time, and spamming it left almost no down time to punish him.

    PROPOSED CHANGES:

    Sorry it took forever to get to. This stuff probably won’t make him viable against all of the top tiers (BD is never beating Ratchet or Isaac unless those characters drastically change), but then every character should have bad matchups IMO. Here’s what I suggest:

    -SH Ice freezes faster. I’m not sure by how many frames, but make it so that if timed right, I can knock someone down, even if it’s only with longer knockdown moves like down throw, throw a SH ice patch on top of them, and it activates fast enough to stop them from jumping. Evil Cole can do this, Sackboy can do this, Isaac and Sweet Tooth can do this, so why can’t Big Daddy, a tech chase character who USED to be able to do it, use the ice patch to limit get up options anymore?

    -Make his air side square have the same super armor as it used to have. I understand I said earlier that this move had a ridiculous amount of super armor, and that is true, but it was also his only effective method for challenging aerials directly in front of him. On top of that this move doesn’t combo into anything (unless there’s invisible walls like on Dojo), and an enemy still gains AP if it hits us during super armor, so at best I get an advantageous trade.
    OR
    -If you think the previous suggestion would be too OP (I don’t, but then I’m not a game designer), give air neutral triangle super armor. This move is somewhat useless right now and covers the same area as air side square, except it stays in place during the active hitbox (Big guy defies gravity) and is more punishable. It also gives less AP. On the flip side, it’ll combo against grounded opponents. I prefer the first suggestion honestly.

    -Give grounded side triangle more hitstun. Not a whole lot, but enough that Big Daddy recovers before his victims kill confirm him.

    -Air Side triangle… that’s the trickiest one… There’s multiple ways to tackle this one. Either:

    A) Give grounded side square back its original super armor. This makes it a godly move once again, but gives him back his ability to do mix ups on block.

    B) Give it more blockstun. How much you ask? Uhhhh… good question… Maybe enough so that if he jabs, he’ll beat out an opponent’s jab, but every other non-grab option is too slow? The thing is, I think that option may involve speeding up Big Daddy’s neutral square because while I don’t know its frame data, I think it’s too slow to do what I’m suggesting?

    C) Make air side triangle 5 frames slower on startup but make it safe on block. This would make it easier to dodge entirely, but give a lot of reward for actually making it to the opponent without hitting a projectile, trap or getting outprioritized.

    D) Reduce the super armor on air side triangle to 10 AP but make it safe on block. This makes it good for punishing whiffed attacks or approaching in general but makes it unable to really blow through much of anything. I’m not sure how well this option would work to be honest.

    E) Keep it unsafe on block but make it SIGNIFICANTLY faster to start up. This allows it to punish whiffs much more effectively and allows you to use it as a mobility tool, but remain dangerous to use and still a potentially bad approach tool. Not sure this one is a good idea either, but it’s another alternative that could work.

    I think that’s it. I’ll edit it if I think of more, but that should make a significant difference. Thank you for listening to my ideas.
25. Fromundaman April 9, 2013 at 8:57 pm

    Hmmm… should have used multiple posts to format this since my formatting got destroyed. Oops, sorry.
26. Lance_Drake April 10, 2013 at 4:34 am

    Here’s something that bugs me, and it’s about something you said earlier.

    So, you said that you gave the maximum possible frames to the stun of the mass inverter before it could become long enough to be a level 1 hit confirm. My question is…why?

    No, really, why would it be such a bad thing for Jak to have a hit confirm off that? It’s not exactly long range, and has a pretty obvious start up, AND it can be blocked. Doesn’t sound like something you could ever land on a regular basis.

    Now, I really don’t know what you guys were tying to do with that “no super until 12 frames after landing an air attack” thing, but the majority of air-to-ground hit confirms are still very much intact. It’s clear that hit confirms are pretty much here to stay, and when characters like Raiden and The Coles get such easy ones and a variety of ways to use them, and a good chunk of the cast have some kind of viable hit confirm, then why is it that a few are left with nothing, or nothing practical?

    All I’m saying is, you can’t look at one character and be afraid to give him a viable hit confirm when you got other people running around and doing the same ones all day. It creates a high amount of pressure on those who don’t have one, and they are pretty disadvantaged because of it. You’re only going to be able to block and dodge Raiden for so long before he hits you with one of his 7 (count them, 7) hit confirms, and it’s absolutely frustrating facing a character with such a versatile way to make you explode into little PlayStationy bits.

    And don’t turn that argument on its head and say that “everyone not having hit confirms encourages variety”. No. Just no. All it does is unbalance the game even more. If people are going to spam moves, they’re going to spam moves. The smart people are going to get around it. And like I said with Jak, it’s not exactly easy to land that Mass Inverter in the first place.

    Personally, I think hit confirms into level 1 are bullcrap and break the risk/reward system, but better to give everyone a viable one now without changing the core system more than changing the core system entirely so that hit confirms are impossible.
27. Heroicmoises April 10, 2013 at 5:52 pm

    I feel that Sly should get some minor buffs for some of his moves. Forward square is very limited, even in low play. Down triangle start up time is OK but the radius is very small and the air version is even worse. It has a very tiny hitbox and a lot of start up time for a very short confuse duration.

    His level 2 is also very clunky. The controls are very tight (in a bad way) and does not allow the freedom I believe it should allow. Either that or the duration seems a bit short. I wouldn’t mind the duration being very short the way it is now if the controls were more fluid.

    Electric cane also should get a minor buff of some sort. Right now it has a lot of start up time for the short range it has.

    Please allow more diversity for Sly. His moveset is unique but some of his moves simply aren’t worth using.
28. Heroicmoises April 10, 2013 at 5:54 pm

    Sly also has a bug which has still not been fixed involving his alarm clock. Sometimes when you send out the alarm clock and use his super 1 before it touches the floor, Murray trips for absolutely no reason whats so ever. This bug also happens sometimes when someone gets hit by the pocket mine. It’s very frustrating.
29. Lance_Drake April 10, 2013 at 6:35 pm

    I posted this in one of my first posts, but you never really had an answer for it.

    Why is Jak’s grab the slowest normal grab in the game? There’s no special property to it like Kat’s or Ratchet’s grab, and yet the recovery on it takes ages. I really want to know why this is. It looks like it might have had a longer reach at some point, because in the grab animation, you can see Daxter reaching out farther than Jak. Was the idea just scrapped, but you guys kinda forgot to reduce his recovery back to a normal speed? That’s what it seems like to me.
30. Leran April 11, 2013 at 3:07 am

    Thanks for the response, I just have one last question, what was with Jak’s six shooter blaster glitch? why did it only work for some people and not for others? I know you didn’t have much to do with Jak so I won’t be surprised if you don’t know but it’d be nice to know.
31. Fromundaman April 11, 2013 at 7:40 am

    Leran :
    Thanks for the response, I just have one last question, what was with Jak’s six shooter blaster glitch? why did it only work for some people and not for others? I know you didn’t have much to do with Jak so I won’t be surprised if you don’t know but it’d be nice to know.

    This was actually solved by people with this And many MANY other unique glitches. It turns out when playing a PAL version of the game on a CRT TV without HDMI cables, it would cause a lot of problems within the game. Some of these included Sly’s teleport not working, BD’s level 1 never coming out, FP’s air down square not having a hitbox and the Jak 6 shot glitch (Which was the only positive glitch they had).
32. Maj Post authorApril 11, 2013 at 11:47 am

    ProjectSeoul: Thanks for making/posting those videos. You’ve been doing an amazing job! It’s sad they’re only getting a few hundred views, but that’s not your fault. The PASBR community just hasn’t been around long enough to become organized enough to shine a spotlight on individual efforts like this. I remember when a video getting posted on SRK only generated 500 views, and now it’s consistently 5,000-10,000.

    Fromundaman: Thanks for that massively informative write-up on Big Daddy. Most of your suggestions seem very reasonable, although the one that scares me is the short hop D+Circle ice setup. You’re probably right that it should be sped up, if all the other mine characters can use theirs as a meaty wakeup trap. But there’s always the worry that someone might be able to cover every wakeup option and create an inescapable trap. Of course there’s a lot of ways to balance it, i’d be willing to give it a shot.

    Lance_Drake: There’s only one game mode where lvl1 kill confirms can make or break a character and that’s 1v1. I’ve already said multiple times that 1v1 was our lowest priority, for completely logical reasons that everyone understands and accepts.

    If there are 10 viable characters in 1v1, that is a resounding success! You can’t just fixate on a single character and judge the entire game’s balance on whether that one character is competitively viable the way you want to play him. That’s not how fighting games work.

    It’s incredibly easy to be an armchair designer six months after a game is released and nitpick at minor flaws that nobody could’ve foreseen during development. It’s much harder to keep the ship on course under extreme pressure, with severe time constraints and limited information.

    I can tell you right now: No game will ever be designed perfectly in the real world of business, with real costs and real deadlines. It can not happen, so it’s ridiculous for you to expect me to feel bad that a character i didn’t even work on turned out weaker than you hoped.

    In FFA and 2v2, a character can be perfectly viable without ever having to rely on lvl1 supers. And yes, refusing to give certain characters lvl1 kill confirms does increase gameplay variety. Jak and Radec both fall into that category of long-range zoning specialists who control large areas of the map from outside the combat bubble, so they tend to die far less often in FFA and 2v2.

    To compensate for that advantage, we made a conscious decision to deny them any practical lvl1 kill confirms. Yes, it was a risky choice. No, i don’t know if it was the right choice. Yes, i would reconsider it if we got a chance to make a sequel. No, i don’t regret it. At the end of the day, i firmly believe that the game is better for having more variety instead of 24 characters running around with easy lvl1 kill confirms.

    Sure, if we had five more patches, maybe we could’ve raised the number of viable 1v1 characters to 15 without harming FFA/2v2 – but we only had about three or four chances to make balance changes. (That v1.11 number is deceptive because most of those patches were emergency code fixes or minor DLC updates.)

    As for Jak’s forward throw, its recovery does seem slightly long by about 5-10 frames, but its total duration is on par with other throws so i don’t see a huge problem. His up throw is very fast, so you can always use that instead. The reason throw durations vary so much is because throws were one of our best opportunities to really showcase these characters, and make them do something cool with a lot of personality. Since every character has three throws, we just tried to make sure at least one of them was on the shorter side – and didn’t mind if one of them ended up really long because the animator wanted to add more flavor/flair to it.

    Heroicmoises: It’s too bad about those Murray bugs, but i don’t know about Sly needing any buffs. He’s been the undisputed highest perfomer in ranked FFA for the majority of the PASBR’s lifespan. If anything, he needs more nerfs!
33. Lance_Drake April 11, 2013 at 12:14 pm

    Maj, I’m not trying to make you feel bad. Anytime I say “you” or “you guys”, I’m referring to Superbot as a whole.

    And, for the throw, I meant the input…as in what starts the throw. Most characters can activate their throw 1-2 times per second. For Jak, it takes AT LEAST a second to recover from whiffing the throw animation.

    As for the hit confirm stuff, guess that’s just where we are going to disagree. I hate the fact that Evil Cole has such an easy one, Raiden has a billion, etc, and then some get nothing. It’s awful balance, and believe it or not, I see hit confirms all the time in every single mode. It plays a HUGE part in mid to high level play, and even low level players know what the hit confirms are and get away with winning with such little practice. It’s absolutely ridiculous. It’s completely unfair that I can dodge the same move 20 times in a row, but I slip up on the 21st and suddenly I’m dead. The playing field needs to be evened. Characters like Jak can barely apply pressure. All you have to do is stay on Jak’s ass, and there’s almost nothing he can do given the slow start up on his guns and his lackluster melee options. Giving him a hit confirm off his Mass Inverter would add a much needed pressure tool for Jak to have. Is it still risky to do? Absolutely. The recovery on that move leaves Jak incredibly open for punishment if he whiffs, so you still have to play extremely smart with it.

    Anyway, I haven’t even played this game for like 2 weeks. It’s too frustrating seeing all the same characters do all the same shit all the time, and the characters I happen to like are too underpowered to consistently deal with them. I wish better luck on the sequel, if it exists, and whoever ends up doing it.
34. bombrider April 11, 2013 at 1:26 pm

    @Maj

    The idea behind not giving characters that can fight from a “safe distance” easy hitconfirms actually does make a lot of sense when you think about it. However, for an idea like that to work you’d have to be consistent about it. How would you categorize Cole and Evil Cole? They have some of the best zoning tools in the game in addition to some of the best mobility options in the game while still retaining very easy and powerful hitconfirms. Cole and Evil Cole argueably have the most utility on their level 1 supers as well. I suppose the only real downside to their level 1 supers is that I’ve never seen a triple kill with their supers (double kills are rare, but they do happen). Still, this super is an absolute monster to deal with in 1vs1 scenarios (I acknowledge that this wasn’t Superbot’s priority though).

    So pretty much my question is: Were Evil Cole and Cole not in the same category as characters like Radec and Jak seeing as how Cole and Evil Cole have easy hitconfirms (that make them top tier). It seems to me that these characters have similar abilities that allow them to fight “away from the combat zone” allowing them longer lifespans as you have mentioned. I realise you probably weren’t involved with any of these character’s fight style designs but your explanation made me curious and I was just simply wondering if you could shed some light as to the differences between Good/Evil Cole as compared to Radec and Jak.

    Thanks for your time Maj.
35. Fromundaman April 11, 2013 at 5:29 pm

    Well the thing with the ice trap was it actually WAS possible before to create inescapable wakeups BUT they were not permanent since there was no option if they allow the ice to hit them that allowed a Big Daddy to put them back in a set up with enough time to lay ice AND make it freeze again before they get up (Only down throw and canceled down triangle used to have enough down time to allow you to SH ice in time to cover options, and you had to guess ahead of time that they would hit the ice to get a ice>down triangle reset into another ice setup.).

    These setups also required ridiculous timing, but the most important aspect was that if you hit the ice another inescapable setup was not possible. Also if Big Daddy was in range of your grab, the grab would come out as the ice froze and grab armor would negate the ice completely. This on top of counters and special wake-ups like Heihachi’s, Sackboy’s pad jump, or Drake’s zip line made the set ups escapable, but still incredibly strong. With proper guesswork, I had managed to steal/build large amounts of meter from my opponents before they got free, as well as seriously get into their heads.

    Sadly, not it doesn’t really work well at all…

    Also, @Lance:

    I’ve seen Jak do well in FFA and 2v2 more often than I’ve seen him do badly. I don’t really agree with his recent changes, but even still I see him able to compete with the rest of the cast in the modes that were prioritized. Hell, he’s not even on the lower end of the spectrum for those modes (Poor Poor Sweet Tooth…) since he should essentially never die.

    Is he an amazing character? Nope. But he is one of the most evasive, and he actually plays a really good support role in 2v2.

    Also, you keep mentioning how bad his grab is. I won’t deny that it’s pretty bad, but he has quite a few “online only” combos into his grab, and has both quick throws for FFA and a throw that doubles as a disable for 2v2 (Forward throw is pretty amazing in that mode) which also sets up tech chases. It also has roughly the same grab animation as Nariko’s grab, which admittedly is also abysmal, but she doesn’t really have combos/set ups into it, nor are they anywhere near as useful (With the exception of down throw, which can set up a very lackluster tech chase in the corner).
    Both of these grabs are also slower than Dan’s, who has the slowest one in the game when his shield’s out.

    Don’t get me wrong, I do find it strange that these characters have such bad grabs when you consider how good the Coles’ grabs are, but his grab is not worthless, and honestly I’d argue it even has more utility than Nariko’s, Spike’s, Zeus’ or Dan’s.
36. bombrider April 12, 2013 at 1:53 am

    @Fromundam

    So you actually think Sweet Tooth is actually worse off than Jak is? It kind of makes sense when you think about it though. Nice to know that other people acknowledge how badly Sweet Tooth was hurt from the patch. It was a real disappointment when he wasn’t even that great to begin with.

    I still love the character’s playstyle but it has become so difficult to win with Sweet Tooth now. Gotta just roll with the punches I guess. Hopefully Santa Monica sees how poorly Sweet Tooth is doing now and give him…something.
37. Maj Post authorApril 12, 2013 at 6:39 pm

    Lance_Drake: Oh, i see what you mean. It does seem strange that Jak’s throw whiff animation takes longer than the norm. Maybe it was just an oversight or a case of miscommunication. If i had noticed it earlier, i would’ve asked about it.

    Anyway if you don’t mind, i really don’t want to keep going around in circles with you. I feel like i’ve responded to all of your objections, but you keep rehashing them. This is becoming very time-consuming for me, and you’re kind of turning it into a lose-lose proposition. Since you’re not interested in playing the game anymore, this seems like a good time to stop, no?

    bombrider: Cole and Evil Cole are sort of a strange case because they’ve never been better than average in FFA. I’ve seen a few exceptionally strong Cole players in 2v2, but even in that mode, he’s never come close to dominating. That’s probably why they were allowed to keep most of their lvl1 kill confirms. (Don’t forget that Cole and Evil Cole have two of the most vulnerable lvl1 supers in the game, in terms of being interrupted or losing their kills even after a successful hit.)

    The other thing about Jak and Radec is they have really strong lvl3 supers, whereas Cole and Evil Cole’s lvl2/lvl3 supers are alright-but-nothing-special. We tried to fill those gaps with subtle buffs for Jak’s lvl2, Cole’s lvl3, and Evil Cole’s lvl2 supers – but all else being equal, i still think Jak’s lvl3 and Radec’s lvl3 are the strongest of the bunch in FFA. Radec’s lvl1 super is no slouch outside of 1v1, either.

    Again, we might’ve reconsidered some of these choices in a sequel, but honestly i’d rather buff the underperforming characters instead of nerfing the Coles, because i think they turned out pretty damn awesome overall.

    Fromundaman: Sounds like walking a fine line, but like i said, i’d be willing to try if we had a few more patches approved. Anyway i appreciate the support and the detailed information.
38. dabuz April 12, 2013 at 9:35 pm

    Hey Maj, i’d like to get some insight on the reasons for Evil Cole’s changes.

    I feel a bit confused on the reasoning behind his changes. In FFA and 2v2 he was never a top tier character, he probably lurked somewhere in high tier, it was only in 1v1 where he truly shined. I understand the removal of upthrow -> level 1 just because it was too good, but in any mode but 1v1, punch was already mediocre because he could be knocked out of his followups easy enough as is, now the move is actually BAD because it can’t be used for punishing anything without a hard read on a limited selection of moves and someway to avoid other people or mines hitting him. Even ECs previously stellar hard knockdown tech chase game is now quite weak because of the startup time increase for punch.

    His buffs aren’t going unnoticed, his level 2 is now actually useful (pre patch level 2 was a joke). Evil Cole can now camp effectively with lightning bolts because they auto-cancel on landing due to how frames were moved, meaning you can grind laser all day like it’s playing Fox in Super Smash Bros. Melee. His up-circle AP buff gave him some REALLY useful AP bursts (off the top of my head, he can now ap burst off upthrow near any sort of elevation and oil spike, not to mention giving free setups for a partner such as Ratchet in 2v2 to AP burst) while giving EC players a reason to end combos with up circle and go for trap setups with up triangle just because that extra boost of AP is enormous. Finally, landing lag has almost no negative effect on EC, while letting him outcamp other characters just because they have landing lag…EC already had landing lag on his grenades because they took so long to throw lol.

    With that said, I can’t complain balance wise. He’s slightly worse in 1v1, slightly better in 2v2 and FFA. However, my issue is that I feel like all the changes to EC were too much, he doesn’t feel like the same character pre-patch EC. Pre-patch EC was most effective at being extremely aggressive and using his projectiles to get in the opponent’s face and force a game of 50-50 mixups due to punch + up throw confirms. Pre-patch EC was also a terrible defensive character in most MUs…a lot of characters with projectiles outcamped him hard. I would classify him as an “offensive zoner/ bruiser hybrid” pre-patch. However, with my analysis of all the nerfs/ buffs, myself and other high level EC players all feel like the character just isn’t able to play the same way he could pre-patch. Post patch EC is a very weak up close character, and his projectile game is now a mix of aggressively and defensing establishing a zone to poke opponents and force bad reactions. This is because his projectile camping game is significantly stronger (only getting outcamped by Ratchet and possible GC) and up circle setups are now his best way to end his combos (which put opponents in a position away from EC, and EC’s resets or kill reads all keep him in a position where he isn’t directly up close to the opponent), and now that punch is kind of a bad move, the risk reward ratio for him up close is bad compared to most of the cast. Overall I would classify him as a “defensively leaning Zoner/ trap setup hybrid” character post patch.

    This is unique EC; other characters like FP, Raiden, Dante, Nariko, Drake, ect. while having their level of effectiveness changed, have not differed much in the optimal way to play them. With all that said, i’m a little disappointed that I feel like one of my mains (the other being Fat Princess) was changed so fundamentally, i’m really curious as to whether this was intentional or if the team behind the balance patch had other thoughts in mind when making these changes.
39. Maj Post authorApril 13, 2013 at 1:21 am

    The way that happened was, we played a bunch of 1v1 matches in the studio while working on this patch – and Evil Cole’s fully charged neutral Circle was just shutting down certain characters ruthlessly. It felt like there was nothing they could do to prevent him from charging it or using it as a reactionary punish against virtually any attack, whether blocked or whiffed.

    A heavily armored attack, with 6-frame startup, great horizontal range, that causes crumple stun, and is surprisingly difficult to punish? Even if it needs prep time, that’s a bit overboard.

    Since we were toning down Fat Princess with 1v1 in mind, it seemed too dangerous to leave that punch completely untouched. I’m not sure why the armor was reduced so drastically, but i definitely agreed with increasing its startup from “fastest attack in the game” to “still pretty damn fast.”

    Changing his entire play style wasn’t the intention – apart from filtering out the most braindead aspects of it – but i can see why mine campers would give Evil Cole much more trouble now.

    Still, wouldn’t you want mines to be somewhat effective at protecting against the punch of death? Otherwise what’s the point? Sweet Tooth and Sly can’t really confirm lvl1 supers off their mines; whereas Big Daddy, Evil Cole, and Sackboy’s trap mines don’t generate enough AP to break through the armor. Doesn’t that layout kind of seem logical?
40. Lance_Drake April 13, 2013 at 6:36 am

    Yeah, suppose I’ll stop now. I’ve got all my questions answered, and unless there’s another patch that actually makes things fair for my main, I think I’m done with this game.

    Thanks for your time.
41. Lance_Drake April 13, 2013 at 6:50 am

    @ Fromundaman

    I’m just really miffed that two of his best options were nerfed when they didn’t even need to be, which were great moves in FFA that never seemed broken, so I don’t get why they needed to be nerfed.

    Then, two of his moves have nasty recovery added to them, which really hurts Jak’s hit n’ run style, which is one of the key reasons I play as him. It’s really easy to punish him if he misses these moves now.

    Two of his moves that were just not good were left untouched, so that also bothers me. I crave variety in what I can do. I want to be able to use all my tools effectively, and the low AP gain on them made them worthless.

    At least two of his other guns were buffed, though, and his supers got balanced correctly, too. Honestly, if they hadn’t have messed with the properties of the guns that already worked and didn’t nerf anything, I’d be pretty happy.

    And I dunno how you see Jaks winning more often than not. Maybe people just don’t see Jak enough to be able to know how to handle him.
42. dabuz April 13, 2013 at 7:57 am

    @Maj: The thing is, it’s not like Evil Cole has distance level 1 or level 2 confirms, so when a mine or high AP projectile (Dante’s axe urrrrgh) is in the way he has trouble killing. This is most notable in the Sly MU where Sly can stay behind the mine and counter everything EC does now that EC can’t threaten with punch.

    I always believed EC’s punch needed -something- done to it, but more along the ways of getting the punch charged up since as people were getting better, punch stopped being brain dead easy to land and instead was being punished for full combos. I personally advocated for a charge time increase and a loss of charge if hit mid charge. I can’t imagine that same 6 frame startup being fair so with the context of landing lag being added, I can understand the startup increase.

    To me, it seems like the team didn’t actually intend EC to be played in the manner he was pre-patch since the reason for punch nerf was that it shut down certain characters for being unsafe at a close range, which is what I always believed to be one of the intentions for punch, the other intention being giving EC an insane close range mixup game. Thanks for your insight on the punch change. If I had to take guess, the current EC design is probably what the Superbot team intended him to play like since his buffs work in ways against the design of getting in close and threatening with mixups.
43. Maj Post authorApril 14, 2013 at 2:27 pm

    It’s not that we didn’t want him to be played in that manner; we just didn’t want him to be quite so dominant at it. He still seems like a strong close-range character to me, based on the amount of AP he can generate off a throw or charged neutral Circle. He can’t just crumple-punch through mines anymore – but that doesn’t mean he lacks a scary mixup up close.

    As for the Sly matchup, do you think the problem might be Sly’s lack of landing lag moreso than Evil Cole’s lack of offense?
44. dabuz April 14, 2013 at 9:39 pm

    No, he’s not good up close at all now. He can’t ap burst off a throw without a wall, wall-less throw AP bursts are huge and MOST characters have one, nor can we kill without a wall. His giga punch has enough startup to be reacted to, it’s even more unsafe, and 10 AP of armor means he can’t plow through meaty attacks like he could. Down triangle has so much startup that it’s best a mid range spacing move when considering he doesn’t get much reward for landing it anyway without a well placed wall. Jab is unsafe and 40 AP + hard knockdown at best, or it can be canceled as a mixup which is still super risky and not worth the reward. Firebird strike is 30 AP, no followups, and really unsafe on block or whiff. Down square is an ok option, but the startup + the fact that most characters have an equally useful block safe melee option makes means EC’s down square is really just average. Grind -> square is 100% unsafe if it doesn’t connect, and finally grind -> triangle is nice at mid range anti-air, but if EC is hit mid grind or during the start of the triangle body slam, he’s in a grounded state, where most character can AP burst or confirm him. Yet that grind triangle body slam doesn’t lead to anything rewarding for EC to combo off of, even with a wall EC won’t get an AP burst. The rest of his moves flat out can’t be used at close range.

    What this means is up close he has three options: A throw which gives him moderate AP, an OK setup (OK because once people get used to it, there are 3 major options they can take and EC can only cover one and has to read the opponent), and has no potential to kill on maps and at most spacings. The second option is punch, a melee move which is able to be reacted to and can be punished with just about anything the opponent wants, even fast supers. It’s High Risk/ High Reward but it’s the only option which is a huge threat now, leaving him extremely predictable up close. The third is down square, slow enough to be reacted to and basically it’s only use is to punish players who over commit with grabs or other options that won’t hit even slightly high in the air. On block it just resets the situation except against certain characters with a lot of fast reach. No matter what, EC will always have an unfavorable risk/ reward ratio up close because he doesn’t have enough options that are a fast threat at that range compared to most of the cast. I don’t consider raw level 1 a close option because any attack of throw will hit EC and waste 125 AP. In essence by making him less dominant, you completely took away his ability to be strong up close vs. players with any reaction time or an understanding of EC’s options. What made him strong up close initially was not his AP gain, it was his ability to force really scary 50-50s due to a legit punch or grab, neither of which he has now.

    I think with regard to Sly, it’s both. Landing lag would let EC punish him a bit more, but since Sly is a character who excels at safe pokes, landing lag wouldn’t make much of a difference. Side triangle in the air would still have so much block push that it wouldn’t be punishable on block, the only real option to punish that move being crouching…but a good sly knows you can’t hit a crouching opponent with that move. Aerial neutral square would be punishable so that would be a plus and finally EC would be able to punish Sly for throwing out mines. EC still wouldn’t be able to punish in ways that lets him kill, which is the big issue IMO.
45. dabuz April 14, 2013 at 9:42 pm

    In all honesty, Good Cole is a better version of EC in every category except mobility now. Pre-patch I could argue against that because of EC’s close range and the capacity to be aggressive, but GC has better close range combat now sadly.
46. Lance_Drake April 15, 2013 at 4:39 am

    Kinda glad E. Coli got nerfed the way he did. A character should not be so deadly at both close AND long range.
47. Evilisk April 15, 2013 at 4:40 am

    Hey Maj, your comment about Crash got me thinking, how did you go about getting third parties in the first place? Did you go to Sony Santa Monica/upper management with a list of who you wanted, and then they went to do everything or did you try to get in contact with certain studios/devs first, ask, see if they were okay and then go make the deal?

    Also, if you don’t mind me asking, did the few guys left at Superbot have any other plans for after you finished this last patch? (I’ve been snooping around the web, and from what I’ve seen there still are people listed as still working under Superbot)
48. Grashi April 16, 2013 at 11:25 am

    I gotta say, I really feel like this game shouldn’t have existed in its current form. Without the proper licensing to put characters like Lara, Crash, Spyro and even some other first party IPs in the game to begin with, I really think something else should have been made.

    Not to scrap the mechanics, but just to come up with unique characters. In this form, it’s just disappointing that the real all stars aren’t in the game. And Promo characters or recent releases sit comfortably at the top. It’s just my opinion, but why even bothering going through with it if the cast couldn’t launch with a full force of Playstation ALL STARS and not just some, and a bunch of promo characters?
49. Maj Post authorApril 16, 2013 at 11:29 am

    dabuz: I see what you mean. Evil Cole has always been a strong character at close and far range. His crumple punch became an obvious balance issue, but i suppose we could’ve weakened his long-range game to compensate for it, instead of tackling the problem directly.

    Either that, or maybe nerf neutral Circle and F+Triangle, but make his neutral Squares safer to set up throw mixups. It’s too bad, i’m sure we would’ve found a satisfying equilibrium point if we had a couple more patches, but at least he ended up at a decent spot balance-wise.

    Evilisk: The whole character acquisition process was way over my head, like i mentioned before. The design team wrote proposals and wish-lists all the time, but we weren’t directly involved in any of the actual negotiations. Every few months, a producer would tell us that we’re going to be working on a certain character next and we’d start working on that character – replaying all their old games, brainstorming ideas, contacting their developers, prototyping moves, etc.

    As for who’s left at SuperBot, you’d have to ask them. All i can tell you is they’re currently down to a very small group, but i have no idea what they’re working on.

    Grashi: If PASBR had sold better, i’m sure you would’ve seen some of those characters released as DLC or included in the sequel. No one has ever tried something of this scale before with so many Sony IPs, so it took a lot of time and effort to establish so many lines of communication at once.

    Unfortunately not enough Sony fans gave it a chance, so instead of being excited about which DLC characters would’ve been announced this month, you’re here proclaiming the game never should’ve been made – without realizing how fine a line it can be. What can i say? I’m as disappointed with the way it ended as you are.
50. Grashi April 16, 2013 at 2:25 pm

    Don’t get me wrong. I love the game. it’s probably my favorite game as of right now. But I really wish that it either came out the game with a hand full of first party characters, or a bunch of unique characters. I mean, when it came out, i was one of the few trying to hype everyone up for it. fighting every “It’s not smash brothers” battle whenever they appeared, but it’s getting hard to defend it now.

    Let’s face it though…no one is excited about DLC. I damn sure don’t want to pay MORE for a game I already threw $60 at. Especially when it’s in need of balancing, tweaking and not to mention the netcode. But I can see how fighting games are different. Where you really only play one, and the DLC isn’t going to break the bank if you’re good at it.

    It’s just…when this game was first announced, and I saw characters like Kratos and parappa, Sweet tooth and even Princess…I had high hopes. But now, as it’s going along…it’s kinda just hoping for LESS additions and balancing what we have now. But I can understand how games need to make money, and a bunch of old characters no one will remember won’t push numbers like hyping people up for metal gear rising, or the new DmC or even Bioshock infinite. But I honestly believe this game would have touched a lot more hearts if it was just “Sony’s smash brothers” instead of trying to just be “not smash. It’s just ‘iconic’ sony icons with a ‘technical’ battle system”

    I’m grateful for what you have presented me with here. I really am. I’m grateful for your time you’ve spent talking to us. But I just wish…it didn’t exist…Not without the cast it should have had. not without the balance or depth a technical fighter should have…

    Just to put it in perspective: I go online with Sir Daniel. Feelings of Nostalgia fill my head and all I see online is Raiden, Kat, Isaac and Cole and they’re just blatantly better than Dan in ANY of the modes. I don’t want to use them…they don’t mean anything to me and it’s just like fighting an uphill battle against characters who really don’t…feel at home in the game. Bar Cole, the former 3 just don’t scream “SONY’S BEST”