438 thoughts on “PASBR Patch 1.10 Balance Changes”

1. bc1910 July 30, 2013 at 4:15 am

   1. No, characters who are supposed to be bad at handling close range pressure like Cole don’t need them to succeed, nor do characters with excellent keepaway (as long as their throw ejects the opponent). I don’t see why Cole, Sackboy and Ratchet (with a wall) should get throw AP bursts when an almost exclusively melee character like Nariko gets nothing. That said, I don’t see a problem with letting ALL characters combo a bit after throws, but some need combos more than others and it’s all a bit mismatched at the moment.

   2. No, I don’t think combos into Level 1 from throw should exist except MAYBE for Ratchet, which isn’t a “combo” per se and is mitigated by the fact that his Level 1 cannot be used raw (in 1v1) and his throw is incredibly slow and unsafe. With throws being as good as they are (though easily baited, but that’s another argument) it just seems like too easy a way to get kills. The cost of having the option should thus be similar to the cost for Ratchet; an unsafe throw and otherwise bad Level 1 super, with poor or no hit confirms (Ratchet has 2 almost useless hitconfirms).

   3. No, he does not really need them to succeed. His Level 2 is the best in the game; self confirming, lightning fast (thus it can be used to punish literally anything), gets 2 kills more easily than any other Level 2 and even confirms his Level 1! I believe he needs the ability to AP burst through any “medium” (throw, air to air, ground to air etc) to succeed. Whether he has too many Level 1 confirms is not really the issue, for example Spike has tons of Level 1 confirms but they all suck. Many of the confirms that Raiden has, however, are extremely good; a parry, a half screen dash and the best anti air in the game. The backflip allows him to combo his Level 1 from any move that doesn’t eject or cause a hard knockdown, and its ability to let him build huge amounts of AP before confirming air-to-air is what brings him to Kat levels of overpowered now. He definitely needs to lose the backflip confirm (just stop him being able to turn his Level 1 round at the start) and though I personally don’t care about his other Level 1 confirms, I don’t see much harm in keeping them since, like many other confirms, opponents have to be grounded. Plus, in a game full of zoners, I don’t see any problem with the only exclusively melee character being scary up close with some Level 1 confirms; just not QUITE as scary as he is now!

   4. Taking a look at the tier list, the only top tiers who don’t confirm their Level 1s are Sly and Kratos. I’m oversimplifying, but Sly succeeds because of his multitude of powerful tools (parry, barrel, teleport), strong oki and the fact he doesn’t have to commit to anything. Kratos succeeds because he builds so quickly, easily and safely to his Level 2 which is very easy to confirm, even from a throw. He doesn’t need to air confirm this super because his jab is so good at catching landing lag. His Level 3 is also usable. If you’re interested, the top tier (excluding Kat) is Raiden, Cole, Sly, Kratos, Fat Princess and Isaac, with the order of the latter 4 often debated.

   Off-topic: I agree with Grashi, running some sets with you would be great fun :)
2. Erazor July 31, 2013 at 9:08 am

   Hi Maj, as you may have heard, Sony Santa Monica is thinking about releasing a last balancing patch for Allstars. I am quite disappointed with Jak’s current state (as I wrote a few months ago) and I have huge interest in giving them some input on possible changes. The thing is, I don’t really know what’s the best way to do it. How should I structure my list of changes so it will be taken serious? What woud you expect of a player who wants you to reconsider a character? A lot of arguments and examples? A long essay or a short summary? Different proposals of buffs/nerffs for a single move? And which basement should I use to support my changes, something like Jak’s playstyle, FFA balancing, competitive viability or player feedback? It would be great if you could give me some tipps. Is there a possibility that you can forward my list to SSM? Because reaching them has proved to be difficult.
3. LightSage August 1, 2013 at 11:22 am

   @Maj
   This is a bit of a combination between on topic and off topic, but with just more details and mostly about Jak. Also to save time of basically re-saying what others have said, Grashi pretty much gave agreeable and accurate answers. Jak should have been mentioned his his grab (.1) and lost of KC (.4) point though… Not sure if you remember me or not, but um i’m that one dedicated and long running Jak player who has been with Jak from the very beginning. We had a convo some months back about him not having any weapons repped from his franchise, Light Jak intros, etc.

   Anyways being one of the biggest Jak fans out there.. seriously no joke, also being rated in the top 3 best of Jak players (which I have held myself in for several months now and knowing his franchise almost as if I greatly assisted in the games themselves, I have constructed a much “needed” buff list that’s been worked on/edited for months (but acts more as a re-done moveset just because of the fact how many buffs Jak needs or should have) to Jak and of course was even more edited after the new changes from the recent balance patch, which I gave months of heavy testing in the lab and high level play before editing. Also you’ll have to bear with me a lot, because apparently taking a break after graduating high school a year and a half ago has taken a large toll on my vocabulary and explaining skills, which both are pretty poor because of it. In addition I know you have no control over the game anymore, but i’m still suggesting what I would have done or what should have been done from this point on.
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   1st off many of us Jak fans and ppl who even just remotely played all 3 games (or just Jak 3) know that Jak was not brung out to his best potential in this game “at all”, is very & terribly weak and misleading to his games/franchise both in game-play, most of his customizations, arcade story/mode and personalty and power. That’s nothing new as he was already like that before any patches after the game’s release. Anyways, THE POINT is the balance patch, overall… didn’t do him as good as was thought in the long run and instead made him worst and a large amount of the already small percentage of Jak users, decreased.

   Today we will only talk about game-play and the core of Jak’s power. Some further problems are that Jak is truly an inconsistent character all around and is among one of the/if not the worst character in the game. His Level 1 super has no reliable KC (-kill confirms) and is already not that great of a super overall. It’s a good enough anti air, sorta, but has terrible duration (which I understand & accept from having played Jak TPL), have terrible width range and the blue eco “overall” is inconsistent “in all fields” that it doesn’t really catch any other rolls type besides the ones that roll into it “right before” the super is used and other manners. Sure it works & acts as an anti air but it has the potential to be an all around effective super. Even it’s start up doesn’t truly make up for it especially with it’s lack of any type of armor making it easily interrupt-able. As I said the duration of the super itself is understandable, but everything else it should have. Jak’s level 1 should kill both through blue eco of any sort and the blue eco emitting from Jak’s body, which it does… Problem is it’s slightly inconsistent and does not match the real end duration of the super. Once the vent comes out from the ground or whatever, from that point to the end, the vent should stay outputting Blue eco as it does in his first game right until the vent finally starts to disappear. The hitbox below Jak’s feet should also be increased/more wider width wise to match the real origin of the real blue eco coming out the vent thus Jak in the air and the blue eco below Jak’s body being a threat. Also seeing as how Jak absorbs the blue eco I suggest having him be charged with blue eco right until/before he touches the ground so that people can still die of touching Jak right before he actually touches the ground. So he will only punishable once he lands on the ground. But I am in no way saying the vent itself should be a hitbox just that the blue eco’s duration both coming from Jak’s body and the vent is a little inconsistent and the blue eco below Jak’s feet is also inconsistent in duration and hitbox.

   **Summarized buffs/nerfs to Level 1 (This will make understanding the buffs more easierto grasp)**

   – Make the blue eco coming out of the vent more involved with the super (like Dark Jak & and his Dark Bomb and since all of Jak’s power comes from that vent) meaning increase the duration (of blue eco) to actually be more accurate to the end of the super (meaning blue eco’s vertical line of energy/frames stays out) and increase the hitbox slightly width wise below Jak’s feet to actually match a more related power of origin hitbox. These changes may sound like they lead or mean the same-thing but they don’t.

   – (Seeing as how this super from Jak’s game has him doing what he does in all-stars except having the effect to run around with the absorbed blue eco as he does in his games), Jak’s body should be actively charged with blue eco until he actually lands on the ground. So you’re basically making the super more canon and having Jak holding his charged blue eco from the air until he touches the ground acting as an anti air that travels to the ground then ends somewhat similar to Emmett’s level 2 except of course Jak’s level 1 ends immediately. And for an *FYI* the vent will be gone, so it’s not like the opponent would have to worry about the vent emitting blue eco and Jak with his charged/absorbed blue eco. Also in a damn good way this compensates for Jak’s level 1 having a terrible duration, because he can’t stay in the air holding the blue eco as if he was levitating. Or if that’s too much then have it to where the blue eco disappears from his body right before he touches the ground. Either way he would still be punishable, just more of a threat to be close to because of his psychical super.

   – Return AP cost to 150 (currently 125). The return to his cost “also” compensates for his AP buffs I will suggest and not just his “proper level 1” buffs.

   (Ideas always seem better when they are thought of in the head and pictured in battle).
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   In regards to question 1 & 2 and in relevance of Jak – Now whether Jak is the greatest char or worst char he doesn’t need a grab that leads into a level 1 more then he does other buffs. Buffs to other things > grab level 1 confirm. This will tie into the link you’ll see later but what Jak does need off a grab is combo potential. This is not impossible to implement. He has 1 grab that can “easily” be adjusted (like Raiden’s was a few times) :). Up grab. All that simply has to be done, which I know wouldn’t take a lot of time at all, is altering the effect of Jak’s up grab to actually hit the enemy up with a heavy reaction rather then it’s current reaction. To provide some examples there are already a few grabs in the game that cause the type of reaction i’m thinking about “exactly”. Isaac’s up grab and Kat’s up grab. Both characters can combo into it because of the reaction and recovery of course. However, Isaac and Kat can easily AP burst off theirs, but the thing is with Jak’s designed moveset he couldn’t do anything close to an AP burst even witht he future buffs I suggest. This is something that would really help Jak out and something he needs and most in fact/definitely fits with Jak’s core character since he’s an acrobatic, strong and air type character in his games and in all-stars. At most Jak can throw out a Gyro burster then if safe enough, grab an opponent and perform a jetboard combo or spinkick while GB lands a few hits.
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   Here are video’s showing off 2/3 PS2 main/iconic mascots and how they were designed pretty amazingly from their games whether they were buffed more or just polished accurately from their games.

   Sly – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DiyCmrS5I1E

   Ratchet – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Z-kJmsT25g

   Now something to know is that Jak was the owner’s first video so at the time he didn’t have much ideas and details down when comparing to the the character in the all-stars world. He didn’t make the same mistakes in his future videos because I let him know that he should go into more detail on his future videos of certain things, which Jak’s video lacks of course, so not everything you or anyone would need to know is in this video. So there will be a few things he missed from Jak’s games or didn’t cover, which me and him talked about. Oh and also his video has a mix of pre-*patches* move elements, so not everything is relevant to current all-stars recent patch.

   Jak: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQVkyHbXHfE

   Now let’s compare Jak with Ratchet and Sly in “all fields” and see what we get. Well I already know because I heavily compared all 3 in all fields. Jak is not even close to these 3 in terms of viability, power and accurateness. I don’t understand. Why couldn’t all 3 beloved and iconic mascots be viable? Why does Jak have to get all of these insane and ridiculous nerfs? Why does Jak look bad in just about every field associated with him unlike these 2 and even others? TBH ever since release I just had feelings that who ever was in charge of him was bias and had some type of hate towards him. There’s honestly too many coincidences ofor me and others to believe otherwise

   Buff list: http://community.us.playstation.com/t5/PlayStation-All-Stars-Battle/My-faith-restored-Balance-suggestions/m-p/41076203#M439603

   P.S. I am greatly sorry for all of this tedious/bothersome looking “essay” I wrote. I just find Jak’s design as a character highly unfair and bias all around. There’s so much to talk about his character, which I didn’t cover because even I myself would not want to read it over and over and such. As I said just the game-play.
4. LightSage August 5, 2013 at 2:49 am

   Again I want to apologize for the long posts that I always share. I personally know myself that I could/will come across annoying and persistent, but I just don’t like seeing how a badass and very strong super hero type character, who was developed by Naughty Dog for Christ sakes, incredibly weak through supers which are basically his super powers, and standard moves. The voice actor situation is worst enough. I can accept everything that was designed for him besides his game-play obviously, but the voice actor.. NO! (lol). The first thing that should have came to mind once Jak was accepted to be in PSASBR was his original voice actor. I would say his partner Daxter first, but that should just be common sense xD. Anyways moving on…

   I knew my buff list wasn’t exactly ready. (The one I sent you previously). It was almost there but I found a few things unnecessary and have new ideas, which I knew would happen. So here it is. Now it’s not officially done yet, but this is wayyyyyyy more closer to the original link I sent you. I promise it’s nowhere near as long and there is not as much details. I could actually even say it’s slightly less then half the content I gave b4. I would actually like opinions this time around.

   http://community.us.playstation.com/t5/PlayStation-All-Stars-Battle/Jak-and-Daxter-Community-Fall-Patch-Wishlist/m-p/41200583#M445623
5. Maj Post authorAugust 10, 2013 at 1:33 am

   Thanks for the answers and sorry for the late response. I’ve been pretty busy with a couple of projects and just haven’t had time to check by here.

   Needless to say, i’m out of the loop as far as Sony Santa Monica’s patch plans. Unless they contact me about PASBR, i don’t think it’s a good idea for me to review/suggest change lists. I’m only making conversation because it’s been an interesting discussion so far, but i don’t want to get anyone’s hopes up that what you tell me is going to end up in a patch.

   Grashi: You mentioned something about reducing super armor on throws, but that’s not quite how it works. Throws and grapple attacks don’t have AP-based armor like regular attacks. Throws are broken by eject-class attacks regardless of AP, and that’s pretty much hard-coded into too many areas (including netcode) to safely change. Visually, breaking a throw with an eject looks decent 99% of the time. Breaking a throw with a light attack could look pretty weird, especially when ledges and slopes are involved. (Trust me, there’s a lot of seemingly minor details like this in the combat system that are extremely risky/difficult to change.)

   bc1910: Thank you sir, i’m grateful for the invitation but i think it’d be better to wait until after the patch.

   Erazor: If you want to contact SMS, i still think twitter is the best option for questions and the official PSN forums are probably the best option for suggestions. I suppose you can also try this email address they posted for fan submissions, but i don’t know if that’s the best place to send patch requests. As for how to structure suggestions, my advice is to make it as short and concise as possible. Bullet point lists are best. Feel free to include a giant essay if you want, but assume that whoever sees your post/email will read the bullet point list and skim/ignore the essay. Game designers working under a deadline are extremely busy people!
6. bc1910 August 11, 2013 at 4:24 am

   It’d still be interesting to hear some further balance suggestions of yours. You mentioned that you wanted to rebalance with 1v1 in mind, are there any big balance changes you have in this regard?
7. Grashi August 11, 2013 at 3:52 pm

   I’ll hold you to that, after the patch :P A lot of us are hanging out here: http://psasarena.forumotion.com/ sitting around and talking about the good old days when Princess and Evil Cole being top tier was cool. But you should totally drop by one day and just destroy all of us with your secret tier toro or something. :D

   On topic: That does make sense regarding the throws and saddens me regarding a few characters who don’t have quick eject attacks. But it’s very few. It’s something to look in to at least.
8. Maj Post authorAugust 14, 2013 at 6:15 pm

   bc1910: Honestly at this point, i’d really have to sit down and think about it before making balance suggestions. The first thing i’d do is compile a list of matchup-altering glitches and figure out which ones can be fixed. If a character is broken tier because of a bug that can’t be fixed within budget/time constraints, well, the options there are kind of bleak. The safest thing to do is probably nerf them down to mid tier and hope they stay there.

   The next step is identifying which characters are broken tier without bugs and reigning in their abusive tactics, or at least tweaking their AP values to bring their kill rate in line with legitimately strong characters. Having a top tier is fine, but it needs to remain within reasonable proximity of mid tier. If a character has 6-4 matchups against 3/4 of the cast, that’s not so bad. If a character has 8-2 matchups against half the cast, that’s a problem.

   The next step would be compiling an accurate chart of characters that can and can’t combo into lvl1 super. At this point i’m fine with lvl1 confirms because you guys are used to that pace of gameplay. Removing them all would slow down match resolution too much. Not to mention it’s dangerous because the one confirm we overlook will rule the game.

   From there, it’s a matter of deciding whether the characters who don’t have lvl1 confirms need them to compete, or whether they can be brought up to par in some other way, or if they’re fine as is. Ratchet for example doesn’t have any practical combos into lvl1 super, but his throw setups may as well be confirms. Kratos is also kind of weak in terms of practical lvl1 confirms, but he’s such a footsies powerhouse and builds so much AP that he does fine with lvl2 confirms. I’m sure there are a couple of characters that might be viable with a lvl3 super gameplan, so i’d want to promote that instead of giving them lvl1 confirms. And there are probably a few lvl1 confirms that i’d consider taking away as well.

   I’d also take a look at the ability to combo from throws and whether more characters need that option to balance the playfield, or at least try to make sure that every character has a decent anti-block option. And lastly, i’d clean up as many minor annoyances as possible, just trying to get a sense of what the community complains about most frequently.

   Grashi: Haha sorry, i don’t have a secret tier Toro or anything of the sort. If anything, it’d be you guys teaching me how far the game has evolved. Trust me, i’m not arrogant enough to think that i still understand the competitive landscape of PASBR better than players who have been practicing, exploring, and discussing the game for nearly a year.
9. LightSage August 15, 2013 at 4:07 am

   @Maj
   Um. There’s something else I want to talk to you about, but looking at your recent reply, I got answers and statements regarding what you said. Oh and btw just forget about what I said earlier. Just too much work for nothing and there’s always an issue.. like that link, which is like that because the forums were shut down a day after that link and threads as well as comments were deleted including mine.

   Anyways.. Jak does have some bad glitches that affect game-play such as Light Jak and his Light blast issue against walls, Light Jak’s character-box not being able to proceed in certain directions on/beside/below certain platforms and Jak’s Jetboard glitch which I know was fixed offline, but netcode says otherwise online.

   I and many other Jak’s including the other top Jak, can confirm that Jak has 2-8 and 3-7 match ups against nearly all the cast. While Jak has a good Level 3 his AP gain and combo potential prohibit him & super from being a real threat. As sad as this is too say even the low tiers beat up on Jak pretty bad. Sir Dan needing just his axe (zoning) because of Jak’s terrible range, start up and properties. Toro with his shortness, shurikens outzoning Jak along with his faster start-up moves. Anyway no need for further details. Not trying to make this long and tedious.

   Combos into level 1s huh? Jak also doesn’t have this… anymore. You know it’s kinda funny because the 2 guns that was nerfed was responsible for most of his KCs whether they were impractical or reliable. I’m sure you’re aware of the Wave Concussor from behind KC which was characters specific mid-screen and 100% reliable in corners. The other ones were situational though, but now it’s not possible because of the major changes. There’s really no KCs you can give Jak without them being one based attacks (which really isn’t really a problem since a lot of characters have them including low tiers). These would be less recovery on dashing punch once it lands or the Mass Inverter of course or the behind Wave C. Even the Arc Wielder off a wall and at proper distance placement. If this gun had less frames of recovery this could actually be a wall bounce confirm………. The Wave C just shouldn’t have been nerfed so hard. It should have been nerfed to a point where the gun can still hit from behind at least :\ Whelp moving on…

   Ratchet and Kratos infact do have reliable level 1 confirms. Just takes a bit of work to pull them off. Ratchet being his agents of doom which gives him enough time to do the level 1 if landed and Kratos doing a short hop.. wait a bit before touching the ground and aD3.

   As I said for throws.. Jak has 1! throw with the potential to have combo potential and that idea should be and should have been put into place. Up grab. The reaction of the Jetboard-uppercut xD should cause a stronger reaction thus hitting an enemy up in a fashion similar to Cole’s, Isaac’s and Kat’s grab reaction type. And the thing is this couldn’t even lead to AP burst because of Jak’s moveset layout and other etc. May’be he can off maps with plat-forms but that’s most likely not the case, just more AP but not an actual burst.

   Now as for the important things that I wanted to talk about. I’m actually on a quest to learning more in depth about the fighting mechanics for this game such as staggers, butt-drops, reactions the whole AP value system and how supers never cost 130, 140 or 700, 725. All things like that in all fields. Because I find myself struggling to explain how I would suggest changes to anyone because im ignorant on exact terms.
10. Maj Post authorAugust 17, 2013 at 12:20 pm

    Yeah, i tried clicking on that link earlier but it led to some weird Sound Shapes birthday thread so i assumed your post had gotten deleted or something.

    Would your solution to Jak’s matchups be giving him lvl1 confirms? Let’s say F+Square and U+Circle both comboed reliably into lvl1 super. Would that make him competitive against the current top tier?

    Regarding your question about super costs, i don’t think you need to know too much about that stuff to make good suggestions. Basically we chose two or three cost tiers for each super level to make it easier for everyone to understand them.

    I can’t imagine wanting to adjust a super cost by 5 or 10 AP. That level of granularity just seems unnecessary and confusing for both players and designers, because it’s almost impossible to make an argument that a super is over/underpowered by such a tiny margin.

    I mean it seems like the value of any given super would fluctuate more than that amount simply based on character matchup and stage selection. So how would you ever narrow it down to such small increments and prove that Sackboy’s lvl1 super is better than Jak’s lvl1 super by 5 AP?
11. LightSage August 17, 2013 at 1:34 pm

    @Maj

    Those confirms would help him out a very great deal! (I can already imagined setups, that is if the Mass Inv wouldn’t get a start up nerf “again” because I find it’s start up tied in with the recovery pretty fair and high risk high reward’ish), but I can still infact say these alone would not even make up for half his flaws. Jak needs much work around his entire moveset along with all their properties & potential. A few examples. With the Mass Inverter’s current start up it, it can be used after the Wave Concussor ONLY in a corner because of the limited range of the Mass Inverter and the great reaction of the WC. Mass Inv cannot be linked into from any other moves including the dashing punch, because it’s reaction along with other moves doesn’t stun them long enough. Anyways, if the Mass Inverter was literally increased by 1 measly meter (which I believe is a 1 sqaure space, correct me if im wrong) a mid-screen combo such as WC + MI + Jetboard combo would exist, however that would still require the WC to hit someone directly in front of Jak.
    And if the Needle Lazers had a quicker start up, the WC from any ranged when landed then using the Needles into a Jetboard combo would exist. And I know other things are considered as well such as balancing in other fields. If we gave the current new Needles a slightly faster start up and better tracking the pre-release Needles would still be way better. Pre-release Needles compared to 1.10 Needles, given the big range nerf, huge speed nerf, big recovery nerf, big tracking nerf, sufficient AP buff (I think. Either way AP is good where it stands) and the sufficient reaction buff, a slightly faster start up and improved tracking from where the Needles stand now would still be nothing like the pre-release version and would instead act as a more proper toned down version then what we received post-release.

    Yeah I figured that for the super cost statement you said, because having seen the super chart mostly all the supers cost around the same cost.

    Well excluding supers yeah. I still need to learn the properties & reaction moves causes though, so for when I say for example, I want this move to cause this reaction I can precisely name the reaction.
12. LightSage August 17, 2013 at 2:39 pm

    Actually you know what? I just realized I had a strong point going there. The Wave Concussor is infact Jak’s best gun, but also his most used gun, reliable tool, predictable tool and combo starter, which all together is a very very bad thing especially since the WC has one of the slower start ups. Generally speaking, if you’re going to have Jak other moves not lead into any consistent or good combos mid-screen then not only should the WC not have lost it’s ability to hit from behind, but his other moves should be stronger because of that immense weakness, which affects his AP gain greatly as well. For some examples-

    No other combos but the WC + Beam Reflexor (BR) + dashing punch + uppercut, same without the BR, WC + Jetboard combo and the WC (up-close) + NL into Jetboard are consistent. Every other combo is only consistent in a corner such as WC + Arc Wielder (AW) or WC + Super Dive attack. So not only was there already a problem with Jak’s combo potential & consistency before any patches, but taking away the effect to hit him from behind not only got rid of a KC, but also combo potential such as the WC + Super dive attack + jetboard, which also affected some efficient ways he gained his AP. Because Jak moves are pretty weak literally all around and the WC is Jak’s only good combo starter (which is why it’s spammed), moves such as the Arc Wielder should have STAYED consistent, so that if Jak lands a WC then the AW should keep an opponent within the electrical current such as it did pre-patch (consistently) for the full 20AP through a stealth buff, which I noticed instantly. It doesn’t make sense how more then half of his combos & moves would only gain the full AP value and would only be consistent if Jak has someone placed at a wall. Jak is the worst character with the consistency issues.

    WC + MI shouldn’t exist only on a wall. Neither should WC + Super Dive attack or WC + AW or anything else. Where the Arc Wielder stands now, it’s only effective use is to catch rolls and be used in corners AFTER a WC not mid-screen. It worked mid-screen through it’s stealth buff, but was then again re-nerfed :\ I mean while the gun should have been designed consistently given it’s origin it still should shouldn’t have lost it once it finally got it. The Arc Wielder may cause a heavy reaction now, but that lost of consistency makes the reaction not a good make up buff. Once again the AW no longer works after a WC unless you’re in a corner and (the alternative-) when the move is used raw from any other range besides DIRECTLY in Jak’s face the gun would push them back and he will never gain the full AP value. Jak is just way too inconsistent as a character all around. This is with everything considered btw even including (what almost none of the community knows about) such as the Needle Lazers gaining 15 AP most of the time when it’s suppose to gain 20, the Jetboard punch missing it’s target in air mostly online (offline I believe it’s fine), the Arc Wielder’s inconsistent stream of electricity, the dashing punch phasing through ppl if their too close to Jak, the uppercut into spinkick while in the air link, etc. However, I can understand the issue with the Needle Lazers. I can tell from it’s design that whoever designed the move had a hard time making it so all 3 Needles always hit a target, so im fine with the NLs being inconsistent.
13. Irokex August 20, 2013 at 8:01 am

    Hello Maj. I remember reading the comments here a couple of months ago, but I didn’t know the conversations were still ongoing. It’s awesome to see how dedicated you are to your game and I’d like to thank you for that.

    Everyone is all excited about this upcoming patch and it has lead to many ideas, some generally accepted and some highly controversial. I was asked by bombrider to come here and ask for your opinion on one of the more controversial changes. This change was adding hitstun (a light hit reaction) to Dante’s Ebony and Ivory attacks.

    People have stated that a change like this could break Dante, but I don’t really agree with that statement. Currently, Dante mainly uses his guns either for mobility, touch of death, or combo extenders that bypass the AP burst system. This forces Dante to rely on his Aerial Arbiter as a mid range projectile and a poke.

    I can see why people would be afraid of giving his guns hitstun, but when you think about what he can follow it up with, it’s not that threatening. He can cancel his guns on hit and whiff, which would allow some interesting combo follow ups, but he wouldn’t be able to kill out of it unless you are close enough for him to empty cancel into jab. All of the other follow up combos would have to be air based as his options are Shredder, Tremor, and High Time.

    One person believed that adding more hitstun to Dante’s guns would be the equivalent of giving him free AP, like Parappa’s boom box. I didn’t feel like this was an accurate comparison (as the boom box forces the other player to approach, otherwise Parappa will get free AP), instead believing that Drake’s Run ‘N Gun was a better candidate for comparison. Even with the hitstun buff, Dante’s guns would be mostly outclassed by this move as the Run ‘N Gun has superior range, gives more AP, has run away while hitting you, and has a strong melee hit at the end (about 30 AP I believe). Dante’s guns would only be superior in the fact that Dante can combo from the guns.

    Some other concerns were Dante’s ability to shoot with Ebony and Ivory and then Angel Dash away to safety, essentially allowing him to reset most situations, using Ebony and Ivory for grab resets, and creating a more reliable hit confirm for Dante with air triangle, side circle, air forward square. For the first concern, Dante gains negligible AP for his guns shots and has average range on them, so while it is possible for a Dante to lame you with his guns and dash away, I doubt that getting 10 AP and running away would be disastrous for most characters. The second concern wouldn’t be that much of a problem. Dante has always had a grab confirm with his side square, and Dante can’t kill out of a grab. The worst he can do is burst. For the third concern, the new confirm would take a lot of commitment to perform, as the gunshots can easily be blocked and if the aerial side square is blocked, Dante is going to get punished hard. But for the sake of balance, I don’t think any Dante would mind a reduction in gun range to about 75% of its current length to make up for the added hitstun.

    I am for Dante having hitsun on his guns as it would assist him in match ups where other characters can lame him at mid range. It’d also assist him in 2v2 and FFA, the modes where Dante’s faults really become apparent (long combos, inability to deal with projectiles, slow level 1 and somewhat subpar level 2). This change would improve Dante’s ground game, give him a better attack for characters who approach from the air (although he does still have a blind spot directly above him), and improve his chances against character with super armor by having a faster punishing option than neutral square.
    It appears that Dante was originally designed to fight more like Nariko, to have long combos and weaker level 1 and 2 to compensate for the AP gain and a fantastic level 3. However, with the discovery of his empty cancel, Dante’s level 1 became a lot more reliable. Dante’s playstlye evolved into a much more ground focused meta, appearing somewhat like an ant lion, as he kills you once he catches you on the ground thanks to his touch of death, but his air game was horrendous.

    I don’t believe that adding hitstun to his guns would break him as a character. He’d still have to struggle against characters like Fat Princess, (Evil) Cole, Raiden, Big Daddy, and Sackboy, but his chances of winning would improve. This change would also take away Dante’s touch of death as the hit reaction would knock the victim out of the crumple state from the third hit of his neutral square. I don’t want to see Dante become the next Raiden, so some more nerfs would definitely be reasonable (for example, increased AP for level 1 super).

    I feel like I’ve said enough on my opinion about this change, but I came here to hear yours (along with a few other questions). What is your opinion of Dante having a light hit reaction added to his Ebony and Ivory attacks? Do you feel as if having the additional hitstun would break Dante as a character? What was the reason Dante didn’t have hitstun on his guns originally? Was Dante designed in mind to be so ground focused with a terrible air game?
14. Maj Post authorAugust 20, 2013 at 11:10 pm

    LightSage: I understand Jak has some balance issues, but i think he’s in a place where he needs more than isolated buffs/nerfs to individual moves. For example, did you actually like seeing D+Circle hit behind Jak? Did you think it was fun/cool or do you just miss it because it was more effective than what he has now? Because jumping backwards into people to start midscreen combos seems a little strange outside of a combovid. (Disclaimer: I actually thought it was kinda cool, but then again i make combovids.)

    Can you do me a favor and post a complete list of changes you’d suggest? Please write them up as bullet points followed by concise explanations, to make them easier to read.

    Also please use button inputs instead of official move names because honestly they’re a little confusing. Nobody says Shienkyaku, Rekkukyaku, or Tenshin when discussing Fei Long’s moves, you know?

    Most importantly, please give me a short summary of your ultimate goal for Jak’s play style, primarily with regard to how he’d generate AP and how he’d earn kills. Lastly, you mentioned something about the Jetboard being fixed offline but not working properly online. What happens online?

    Irokex: You bring up some very good points, but honestly making Dante’s guns cause light reactions would be my absolute last resort. That topic came up several times during development, but we all wanted to keep Dante’s design unique in that respect.

    I’d much rather figure out another way to account for his shortcomings before giving up on what makes him stand out. While it wouldn’t be that different from Drake’s neutral Triangle, it would reduce the overall variety of the cast and i think that hurts the game as a whole.

    The big question is, what should Dante be able to do against airborne opponents? And unfortunately that’s a global issue in PASBR, because it seems that the best characters in the game all have reliable anti-airs which lead to high-AP combos and/or kill confirms.

    One solution would be to take that away from Kat, Cole, Raiden, etc. but i personally hate the idea of creating a fighting game environment where staying on the ground sucks and being in the air rules. Especially if air-to-air combat devolves into single hits and short combos, where nobody can threaten a kill confirm. I don’t like the idea of matches dragging on because kills require grounded opponents and there’s no ground game incentive.

    So the real question is, what does Dante need to effectively threaten airborne opponents and get them on the ground where he can perform at least one legitimately scary mixup before they escape?

    Maybe all he needs is a combo into air D+Square from a viable air-to-air attack. Any ideas? Keep in mind that whatever move you choose to buff, you don’t want to make it so powerful across the board that it becomes the new big dumb problem for everyone else. A strong air-to-air attack probably shouldn’t be a great air-to-ground option as well.

    What if his neutral Circle was cancelable into Triangles on hit? That means you have to successfully counter an attack and actually hit the opponent too; but if you manage that, you can cancel j.Circle -> j.Triangle -> j.F+Circle -> j.U+Square -> j.D+Square and put them on the ground.

    As for his problems against projectile zoning, what if D+Circle was a little more durable? Would that be enough?
15. bc1910 August 21, 2013 at 6:24 am

    That is the kind of environment we are seeing at a good level of play, though. I think this can be boiled down to two main reasons; staggers, and the nature of air attacks. If you are in the air you are safe from butt drops, kneels and crumples, which are used for the vast majority of Level 1 confirms and a large amount of AP bursts as well. By remaining airborne you hugely limit what your opponent can do after landing a hit, with safety from Level 1 confirms being the biggest reason to stay in the air.

    As for the nature of air attacks, I don’t think it’s any surprise that air based combat is hugely favoured when the vast majority of attacks are safer, faster and outright better in the air. Look at Ratchet’s (almost) entire moveset; why would I ever use D+Triangle buzzblades, Neutral Circle sniper or Neutral Triangle burp gun when their air versions are so much more effective?

    We’ve seen the danger of giving characters air to air confirms – it’s no coincidence that Kat, Raiden and Cole are the top 3 characters in the game. Perhaps a place to start would be making certain aerial moves less safe/spammable, like Nariko’s discs dragging their recovery to the ground? I think landing lag was a helpful addition and adding another ~5 frames or so could be really helpful, but equally it can cause issues by hugely favouring characters than punish landing lag well and/or cover their own landings well. Another reason why Cole is so good is that he can cover his landings incredibly well with Air D+Triangle, Air D+Circle and the infamous Ice Jump.
16. Erazor August 21, 2013 at 12:01 pm

    Hi Maj, you asked LightSage about his thoughts on Jak. If you are interested, you can take a look at my buff list as well and give me feedback. The goal is to create a character that is both fun to play and viable in competitive play. He shall be rather difficult to get in on, with good AP gain and lots of options, but little combo potential and few ways to kill people (unlike Cole/Kat/Raiden). Below you’ll find short explanations for the most significant changes.

    What’s what?
    + Buff (++ = absolutely necessary)
    – Nerf
    # glitches and control issues
    () (Changes maybe necessary for FFA balancing, irrelevant in every other mode)

    Forward Circle
    ++ Restore 1.09 version (including landing cancelable recovery, better tracking, 10 AP per shot, shorter range and mini lift reaction)

    Forward Triangle
    ++ bring back 1.09 eject roll
    ++ range back to 9 and shots fire 15 frames apart (like Patch 1.09)
    ++ AP gain back to 10 AP per shot (1st shot gains 10 AP, 2nd and 3rd each gain 5 AP for a total of 20 AP)
    # Additional shots only come out if forward triangle is hold or pressed again, not neutral triangle
    # remove continous fire, sometimes it causes the second shot to come out after using it in the air

    Up Circle
    ++ decrease recovery (side effect: comboing into level 1 will be more consistent)
    + increase AP gain to 15 (up from 5)
    + decrease startup by a little bit

    Down Circle
    ++ bring back 1.09 range and hitbox behind Jak
    (- reduce AP gain of uncharged version to 15 down from 20)

    Down Triangle
    ++ Decrease recovery (especially of the aerial version) or make it jump cancelable/cancelable on landing
    ++ increase AP gain to 8 per shot
    + shots bounce off of 1 opponent for an additional 2 AP (purely for fun)
    # Additional shots only come out if down triangle is hold or pressed again, not neutral triangle

    Air down square
    # after a bounce, only down square leads to another bounce, not neutral square

    Up Circle
    ++ decrease startup by 1-2 frames
    + increase AP gain to 15 AP

    Forward Square
    # Fix the issue where Jak sometimes performs the ground version instead of the Jetboard while being in the air

    Neutral Triangle
    ++ remove heavy reaction at the end, restore 1.09 version
    ++ fix the issue where opponents only are trapped in the move for the full duration when fired at point blank range (came with 1.10)
    ++ decrease recovery so that Jak can go for a reset follow up like Up Triangle or Forward Triangle depending on which direction the opponent recovers
    + increase AP gain to a total of 30 (previously 20)

    Neutral Circle
    ++ now bounces of walls

    Up Grab
    ++ slightly decrease startup
    + allow Jak to follow this up with a short combo like Up Triangle + aerial Square

    Why does the Forward Circle have to be changed back to its 1.09 version?
    Well it is the move pre-patch Jak’s game plan was based on:
    it helped baiting your opponent
    it was used for aggression and mix-ups
    it was used for on block pressure
    it served as an anit-air
    it covered your movement
    it forced your opponent to react

    With the current recovery, all these things are gone, you simply cannot do anything after landing. Since Jak’s gameplay is so heavily reliant on this move, altering it in any way other then the above mentioned can either get us an absolute monster (like Kat) or another **bleep** version like the one we got in the last patch. I want neither of that. In my opinion, it’s way too hard to predict what will happen when this move gets changed in any other way, because SSM most likely won’t have the time for proper testing. We already know that the pre-patch version of this move works well, supports Jak’s gameplan and makes him fun to play, that’s why I’d simply restore it.

    Down Circle:
    Jak’s most controversial move. In casual play (FFA) this move was very dominant, alongside with the Forward Triangle, simply because his other options were not viable. In competitive play this is no big deal. While being very strong, opponents learn how to deal with it. Can’t start huge combos and rarely kills, so going back to the old version shouldn’t be a problem. FFA won’t cause any troubles when Jak’s other moves get buffed to the point of being a real alternative. The ability to hit from behind is not absolutely required but nice to have.

    Forward Triangle:
    Range and eject are key for zoning, without the range Jak has to be played purely close up against some characters (Evil Cole, Drake) for which he isn’t well equiped. The rest overlaps with the Down Circle.

    Up Triangle
    The huge startup and recovery combined with the small AP gain of 5 set up a horrible risk/reward situation. The use of this gun is rarely justified. I can’t recall a single situation where I’d put it to good use in a tournament. The kill confirm that comes with a decreased recovery is not that much of a big deal. It would be his only practicable one for level 1 (Up Circle, Up Triangle, Level 1). It already exists but is incredibly inconsistent.

    Up Circle
    Still pretty useless move. Making it a kill confirm with the options mentioned above it would create an option Jak’s opponents would have to respect (and it would be really cool^^). Considering the fact that an opponent is rarely that close to Jak or just has the upper hand up close (melee characters) it wouldn’t be too dominant.

    Down Triangle
    The only thing that hinders this gun is its incredibly long recovery. With a little bit less it could be great for pokes and linking air to ground combos. When firing this gun in the air currently, you are dragged almost to the ground from double jump height, which is too risky.

    Neutral Triangle:
    This move needs something to justify its use against other weapons up close. The best thing I could come up with so far is a better AP gain. The other buffs are mainly to restore its 1.09 abilities for potential follow ups.
17. LightSage August 22, 2013 at 9:40 pm

    @Maj

    I couldn’t exactly make what you meant by, “he’s in a place where he needs more than isolated buffs/nerfs”, but the way I feel about it, which starts off similar but ends different would be that I just feel like his fighting personal or mechanics are just not that well developed in this game. I see him as the worst designed character game play wise TBH. The fact that Jak of all characters struggle against all low tiers (and all characters), gets out-zoned by non heavy projectile users, cannot in his current state to be played at a paste that every other mid range zoner or character can be played at (like Drake, Isaac, and Ratchet) as well as deal with those characters consistently without either getting hit himself (-take a hit to land a hit-) from his slow start ups or short ranged guns and etc. While I do like some of the new things he was given into this game that he never had in his own game such as a Jetboard combo, I disagree with a lot things that weren’t implemented like the Wastelander combo, Scatter gun and High jump kick then I also disagree with how of course his existing moves were “finalized” from pre-release.

    Ok so you asked me about D3 hitting from behind. Ok so, the gun was just a tool I seen was designed pretty well by SB balance wise. Not having the full 360 range from where it originated, but still having a form of the 360 range uncharged and charged to a balance state. It’s clearly a crowd/multiple ppl hitting tool so again I saw it as balanced when it was finalized especially when you consider the gun not having a fast or quick start up, but rather a moderate (punishable) start up AND no additional AP off fully charged. You know the start up and charge wasn’t/isn’t as fast as Spike’s S1. So I was pretty satisfied with it all around. As I said I wouldn’t exactly agree to having nerfed the gun to where it is now, but “if” it truly was a problem I would have nerfed the hit volume to a point where it could still hit behind Jak uncharged. Ok so then you mentioned you find it weird how Jak could jump and start combos from behind.. well U3 does that, D1 does as well and there are other characters in the cast who can start combos from behind such as Fat Princess and Sir Dan. So I don’t see the problem with all these things considered as well as Jak’s other flaws elsewhere. Furthermore this was Jak’s only practical KC “in corners.”

    I can do this, but I will not be able to explain my points as well as I would like to. It’s always easy to gain the experience to know whats not right and whats wrong, but for me explaining them or thing are a bit challenging. And when you say complete list of changes, do you mean how I would re-design his character or his existing moves now?

    As for the Jetboard situation. The Jetboard combo is still inconsistent online. The aspect of the Jetboard combo that was said to be fixed was only fixed or tweaked offline, but online it still drives through opponents meaning the punch still misses. I can safety say this is a netcode related issue. And btw nice combo video, I sure do miss that behind D3 hitbox then aS1 and so fourth :(
18. Maj Post authorAugust 25, 2013 at 10:21 am

    bc1910: Yeah, it’s not so surprising that everyone tries to hang in the air as much as possible. We did see it coming during development, but maybe not to its current extreme. It can be addressed in a number of ways, but i know it’s a delicate ecosystem so i’d really have to think about what the best option(s) would be.

    Erazor: Thank you sir, that’s exactly the kind of list i had in mind. I’m not sure i agree with all your mandatory buffs, but i see where you’re coming from. Personally i’d prefer trying to make some of his 1.10 changes work with slight tweaks instead of straight up reverting them. For example, the old neutral Triangle reaction was pretty damn weird, and i’m a lot more comfortable with how the new version looks/behaves. If AP gain is the problem, i’d rather just increase that instead, you know?

    You mentioned some control issues. For something like F+Triangle or D+Square, why do you want those directions to be held for followups? Isn’t it pretty standard for those followups to be done with any directional input?

    But the biggest question i have is regarding your vision for Jak’s match flow. How do you imagine him gaining most of his AP and how do you see him scoring most of his kills? How do you imagine mid-tier characters beating your version of Jak? By the way, i hope you’re not trying to make Jak as strong as current Cole/Kat/Raiden because chances are those characters will be at least slightly nerfed based on everyone’s pleas.

    LightSage: Dude, we’ve been over this. I’m not gonna stop you from venting your emotions, but it’s not gonna accomplish anything either. Hoping for new guns and melee attacks in a balance patch is a waste of time. That’s barely better than asking for a voice actor recast at this point. Anyway nevermind, you don’t have to do what i asked if you don’t want to.
19. LightSage August 25, 2013 at 1:24 pm

    @Maj
    No no… I’m not hoping for any new moves or guns at all in any patches. I was simply saying what I was disappointed in that didn’t make it into his moveset when the game was released 11/20. Of course I know it’s wayyyyyy too late for that. It’s just I guess, I over analyzed when you said, “complete list” of changes.

    It’s not that I don’t want to. It’s just my explanations will not blend well with my proposed changes. My details and points will seem bias and not well thought out when I know that’s not true. It’s a personal problem I have, which is why I cannot explain things the way I want in certain situations. I got the buffs and nerfs down and ready to go along with the sufficient experience. Writing it down in intelligent detail for each buff is just my only problem. Everything from balancing, taking other things into consideration with Jak and everyone else in the cast is the easy part.
20. JushtFinisht August 25, 2013 at 2:13 pm

    @Maj

    Going on what bc1910 said about the air being so safe…yes, the majority of the characters in this game have kill confirms that are only effective on grounded opponents. This, of course, brings the big three – Kat, Raiden, and Cole – into the fray again. These three characters have relatively safe, reliable anti-air confirms for their Level 1s.

    As for other characters…

    – Spike also has numerous anti-air confirms, especially his B-Launcher (D+Triangle), but not any that can hit an opponent above double-jump height. In any case, most of his confirms are generally read confirms. They are not ones where you can simply hit your opponent and go “oh, I got a hit, guess I should use my super now.”

    – Kratos and Isaac are the only other characters I know of who have good anti-air confirms (for their Level 2), but they are less of a force to be reckoned with because their Level 1 confirms are harder to land.

    – Sir Daniel’s arrow (U+Triangle) can be a confirm to his Level 1, but he commits a lot when using it and can be punished easily. Radec’s Teslite Grenade (F+Circle) usually is not active long enough for Radec to reliably confirm his Level 1.

    – Fat Princess, Sweet Tooth, Sly, Big Daddy, Evil Cole, and, to a lesser extent, Dante’s “anti-air” confirms consist of causing a Knockdown on aerial opponents and getting good reads during a tech chase.

    So generally, I think these are some of the reasons why the air is so safe. And I believe part of the reason why the roster is imbalanced as it is now is because the top tier characters generally have favorable, rewarding mix-ups/reads against any defensive option while having great, confirmable, lower-level supers.

    I think to balance things out, there needs to be a standard set among characters who have great Level 1s and characters who have great Level 3s. I have two characters in mind:

    – Consider Sweet Tooth. He does not have many reliable combos and his AP gain comes in short, powerful bursts of 20-30 AP moves. His Level 1 is the lowest-costing Level 1 in the game, while his Level 2 is probably the worst super in the game for its cost. His Level 3 is a good reward considering its very hard for Sweet Tooth to get there. For the most part, Sweet Tooth will want to use his Level 1. To land it, he will usually want to rely on good dodge reads, especially from oki, or his machete (Air N+Square). Personally, I find this pretty balanced. Although he is the only character in the game who can use 3 Level 1s before he reaches his second bar, he has no overbearing anti-air kill confirms. There is less of a margin for error as there is for Kat, Raiden, and Cole. What prevents him from being a high tier character are his poor range, slow speed, and big hitbox.

    – Nariko, on the other hand, is quite literally the opposite of Sweet Tooth. Her AP gain is phenomenal. She can get a full, AP Burst combo off ANY of her moves, given the right positioning. Her range and lack of linearity brings something to the table that not many other characters have. Unfortunately, what hurts her are her terrible Level 1 and 2 and, as I said in an earlier comment, her inability to combat turtling. Provided she were able to combat turtling, however (by giving her either guard breaks or throw combos), I think she would be a good representative of the “high AP gain, bad lower-level supers” model. You can play Nariko as sort of a volatile character who gets combos left and right and throws out multiple, not-easily-confirmable Level 1s at any moment until she wins the match, or you can play her as a ticking time bomb who has many great tools to get to her Level 3. Her Level 2 is in a class of its own with high-risk attached to it.

    So there you have my take on the whole matter – me proposing two general models of a character in relation to the super system in this game. The first model should be one of a character who cannot get a good reward out of punishing every single defensive option but is rewarded tremendously when getting a good read toward THAT one defensive option; this character will usually have low AP gain, but great low-level supers to make up for it. The second model should be that of a character who gets a sizable reward out of punishing EVERY defensive option but has terrible low-level supers to make up for it; this character usually has high AP gain and an excellent Level 3.

    Now obviously, there are some characters who don’t follow my models – PaRappa for example. He has a great Level 2 that is guaranteed a kill 99.9% of the time and not a very cost-efficient Level 3. But I guess that’s just something else to add to the discussion, and I know fighting game characters should not be balanced according to simple models.
21. Erazor August 29, 2013 at 12:18 pm

    Hey Maj, I’m glad that you find my changes somewhat reasonable. About going back to the old versions for some moves: My only problem with the neutral triangle reaction is the missing follow up options. In 1.09 the opponent had to decide whether to tech up or down to avoid getting hit by either an up triangle or forward triangle. If the recovery of the current version gets shortened a bit so Jak gets kind of similar options, I’m totally fine with it. My concern with this is that both startup and recovery of this move will be short which might be a bit overkill. But if the AP gain gets buffed to a level that compensates for the lost follow up it would also be fine. Which other moves do you like better in the 1.10 version and how would you tweak them?

    About the control issues, here are some things that happen quite often and shall be prevented by my changes:
    If the opponent reacts to an aerial down square by jumping straight up, both forward and neutral square are nice options. But in the heat of battle you often times get another down square instead which gets punished hard. The aerial down triangle has a similar problem. It is possible to link aerial down triangle to grounded forward triangle. But often times another down triangle comes out. On top of that there is a glitch that gives you 2 down triangle shots no matter what when fired at a certain height. I hope that can be fixed by mapping the 2nd shot only to the down triangle command.

    “How do you see him scoring most of his kills?”
    I want him to reach level 3 once every match and land his other kills by few and much harder to land level 1s and 2s.

    “How do you imagine him gaining most of his AP?”
    That depends on which characters he faces. Melee characters can effectively be zoned and on their way towards Jak they’ll get hit by a lot of single hit projectiles which start no combo. Other mid range characters like Drake or Evil Cole will have nice zoning battles with Jak and on top of that some close up actions. Better zoners like Ratchet or Isaac will have to deal with Jak’s on block pressure and mix-ups which will net him the required AP.

    “How do you imagine mid-tier characters beating your version of Jak?”
    I’m using Dabuz’ tier list as a reference and go over some characters: http://allstararena.com/threads/my-post-patch-1-10-tier-list.627/

    Drake: Better combo potential than Jak, much better level 1 and 2 with kill confirms. Jak has to make up for this with a better AP gain on his single moves or better zoning/rush down options.

    Big Daddy: In my eyes, this matchup was perfectly balanced in 1.09, the Big Daddys I trained with or fought in tournaments agreed on that. If SSM doesn’t go crazy with the recovery changes I proposed that match up shouldn’t change too much.

    Nariko: Both combatants are in a kind of peculiar situation: They only can reliably kill each other with their level 3s. Nariko clearly outperforms Jak in AP gain, she reaches her second level 3 a lot faster. In 1.09 you had to rely on hard reads with your level 1 to be able to compete. Otherwise the matchup was completely fine and very fun to play. My changes will make Jak’s game less predictable and give him more options, so it will be easier to outplay/outzone her.

    “By the way, i hope you’re not trying to make Jak as strong as current Cole/Kat/Raiden because chances are those characters will be at least slightly nerfed based on everyone’s pleas.”
    I’m perfectly fine if Jak gets as good as Nathan Drake or slighty worse. Changing some of his guns from unviable to “viable at the right moments” shouldn’t bring him to Top Tier, especially when considering that he was low tier in 1.09. Cole, Kat and Raiden all share the ability to kill or AP burst of a lot of their moves which my new version of Jak won’t be able to do. I wouldn’t want to make the community face another Kat since she’s my personal horror opponent. Her ability to advance while dodging annihilates all of Jak’s options and his recovery gets him ready to be killed. Saerreng (who asked a few questions here himself) and me examined the match up very deeply, we even drew charts of the specific move ranges and tried to find an opportunity for Jak to strike back. Unfortunately that girl is save on almost everything she does against Jak, so blocking doesn’t do a thing. It’s safe to say that the Jak vs Kat match up in 1.09 was 0:10. So be reassured, my Jak is not gonna be like Kat :D And now I’m looking forward to hear your opinion on my explanations.
22. Bamsama August 29, 2013 at 11:26 pm

    Hey Maj! Hope youre doing well! Havent talked with you in awhile. Im sure others have updated you at the fact a group of us called Fight Mic Club have been reviving the community. This balance patch has people hyped even more so ( for obvious reasons). I am also looking at more good reset tech and traps for this game as of late and will release a video of it soon. I also emulated your Footsie Handbook and made one for the community as well.

    I was looking the other day and I definitely feel your idea for down teching having a few extra frames is actually a good ploy to advance the reset game. Then I saw some of the beta combos in All stars and i really was curious as to what happen to that more seeming combo centric style of PSA? ST had jab cancels that were pretty brilliant, it seemed Dantes moves did less AP so Dantes had more time to do stylized combos, Raiden had even more unique combos ( that air neutral squares to air down triangle cancel to air side square to air up square was so sexy). Obviously there were certain things that may have been too powerful, however for the most part it was pretty awesome. especially with the entire roster having those buffs haha. Did they tell you to tone down combos or did you decide to do so yourself or what? Ive been really curious about that. Lastly, Id love to hear what your ideal vision was for the combo system in this game. Did you wish for incredible combos and reset opportunities or what?

    At any case, I always love to hear your feedback. I hope our Community Character Change notes from Fight Mic Club will get to SSM. I believe a ton of us enjoy all the work that has been done in this game. Its a great idea and we all feel with right tweaks ( leveling the playing field with some characters and allowing less move polarization for characters outside of top tier) will make this game what it has the potential to be. We all know theyres going to be a tier list and certain character inherently better than others. However having a game where the majority of the moveset of character can be utilized in some way would allow people to flesh out the system you created.

    Thanks for being such a good outlet for us all man. Hope to see some of your game analysis stuff soon.
23. bombrider September 1, 2013 at 4:20 pm

    @JushtFinisht

    That’s a pretty good explanation of Sweet Tooth overall, but I would like to point out that Sweet Tooth is actually not the only character in the game who can use 3 level 1 supers without getting his second bar. Heihachi, Big Daddy, Good Cole, and Parappa fall into this category along with Sweet Tooth.
24. JushtFinisht September 1, 2013 at 5:26 pm

    @bombrider

    Wow, can’t believe I overlooked those characters. Thanks for correcting me! Would have been a big mistake on my part.
25. Maj Post authorSeptember 3, 2013 at 1:37 am

    JushtFinisht: That’s definitely a valid model for balancing characters for 1v1, and in retrospect it would’ve been nice to adhere more strictly to something along those lines. Ultimately what made it difficult for us was having to balance for three modes and keep the characters diverse. Even early on, we were getting some complaints about certain supers being a little too similar.

    For what it’s worth, if i got to do a balance patch a year after launch, i’d definitely cater it quite a bit more towards the dedicated players – because you guys are the ones who stuck around. Plus in general, i think the player base preference tends to shift gradually from FFA to 2v2/1v1 as the game matures. The same thing happened to Smash, right?

    Erazor: Well, i don’t really disagree with anything you said. As far as Jak’s controversial 1.10 changes, mostly i just think the neutral Triangle and F+Circle changes make those moves look much better visually. Although i’ll admit (and did a long time ago) that i had no idea you guys were using F+Circle as bootleg anti-air.

    I wouldn’t be opposed to making F+Circle behave more like it used to, but my first instinct would be to figure out why y’all prefer F+Circle over his intended anti-airs (U+Square, U+Triangle, U+Circle) and try to make those better.

    Bamsama: First off, thanks for your support. I may not be able to participate for various reasons, but i very much appreciate that you guys are keeping the community alive. Most of all, i’m glad that you’re still enjoying the game.

    As for combos in old pre-release videos, it really depends on the character and what phase of development they were in. For someone like Dante, it’s as simple as his AP values not being finalized when those videos were made. He’s always had very low kill ratios on his lvl1 and lvl2 supers, so his AP values got bumped up a couple of times during development.

    For Sweet Tooth, he actually went through a fairly major design overhaul between having those Square cancels and his current incarnation. He was always supposed to be more of a big bruiser character like Big Daddy and (later) Zeus, and those combos made him feel like Raiden. So we took those out and improved some other stuff, like making air neutral Square cause a stagger reaction instead of flatten.

    For Raiden, let’s just say it took several revisions to make air F+Square not the easiest infinite in the game. Plus some of that old stuff was outright ridiculous. So many crumples!

    Regarding the combo system as a whole, i’m pretty happy with how it turned out. There’s plenty of room for creativity based on the incredible combovids the PASBR community has been producing, and it seems pretty stable balance-wise. I mean, there’s nothing as gamebreaking as XSF infinites or 3S Yun’s Genei-Jin or SFA3 crouch cancel infinites, so the AP burst system successfully keeps the play field relatively fair.

    It’d be nice if there were more ways to invent resets, but that’s a slippery slope too. If things had been different and we’d been releasing patches this whole time, i definitely would’ve tried to implement down tech lag by now and might’ve even increased normal/attack landing lag.

    It’s a bit scary though, because resets circumvent the whole AP burst system, so if you find a reset that’s technically inescapable due to online lag or whatever, that could become a true lockdown. I’m not sure how we’d tackle that problem. Maybe rework the infinite avoidance system so that it takes more time to clear/reset after a combo based on online latency? That might feel pretty weird in practice though.
26. Bamsama September 3, 2013 at 7:17 pm

    Combo wise, the game has is quite solid. We have few ToDs, with a ton of them being broken by utilizing a lvl1. True infintes all but dont exist so thats great. I know some issues arise with particular characters in the combo department. For example Sweet Tooth, while being a big bruiser ( the “grapplers of the game”) like Big Daddy, gets little mileage out of his hits in close. While I definitely see the pre patch version perhaps having too much combobility, his lack of good combos out of roll reads and grab make his oki subpar which seems to be what he excels at. I think that some healthly median in between those incarnations would have done him well. I think Big Daddy plays his role beautifully.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7gGcO1e86V0

    Zeus has had an issue as well being a big bruiser with unfortunately very punishable tactics up close. Quite frankly if it wasnt for the extended roll glitch ( in which Zeus can retain invincibility past his cooldown frames and roll again) Zeus would be a horrendous character overall.

    I do see what you are saying for Raiden haha; definitely like where air f+square is now. itd be great to see some of those combos ( without the crazy crumples) in action though hahah. Oh and I believe for Jak the issue with utilizing his other “anti airs” is its simply not as safe nor they give as good of a reward, which seems to be an issue with a myriad of moves in this game. Of course certain moves are over-shadowed in every fighter, fact of life. It just seems certain moves are too polarizing. From grabs to aerials, some of the character currently has an issue with getting too much reward + safety for one move over the other. Mass Converter is virtually useless unless a hard read and you get little to no reward. While the old Mass Converter had crazy hitstun and AoE, i think the idea behind it was sound. It punishes certain down tech options and the start up while long sets up a wonderful anti air hitbox around Jak. If it were tuned down a bit I think itd be a lot more effective as an anti air and would aid Jak in resetting his opponent which he current has a hard time doing despite it being his main goal ( his zoning options pale in comparison to a ton of the casts and he doesnt gain enough AP for hit and run to be too effective( which makes sense because hit and run in that nature would not being good for any game mode)).

    the reset problem is indeed tricky. we do have some grab resets still ( wish there was a better way to change those up rather than out right take out the grab) that do polarize somethings. Aside from those resets and a particular guard break reset via Fat Princess, the reset game is not as strong as it could be imo. I dont know what you would do to make it better without breaking it. I think downtech landings having 5-7 frames of lag would be good. especially since you can cancel a down tech into an aerial OR double jump into some kind of retreat or whatever. down teching as a whole has a myriad of variants so i dont think you could have a reset from that which would end up inescapable. its kind of like in Smash Bros. Brawl; even though you had a multitude of juggle traps that would work pretty much guaranteed, the existence of double jump, air dodge and aerial mobility make those harder to accomplish than it would seem. being able to control air momentum and utilize moves that augment it ( raiden air forward+circle) change up those traps.

    Just a recurring issue Ive always thought about in this game, what do you think of the grab game as a whole? Aside from those who get AP burst/ KC from their grabs, grabs seem pretty useless. Sure they give hard knockdowns but with the option of delaying your get up at multiple frames along with neutral getup and back/forward rolls, Hard knockdown give little meaning ( theres more defensive options than SFxT had for hard knockdowns and that game gave little reward for HKDs). I always felt personally that every character should have some grab that gives some kind of combo ( doesnt have to be an AP burst; just some kind of string). Some characters depending on their playstyle should get more reward out of grab than others but some kind reward is need aside AP. Even in FFA or 2 v 2, having to pick up meter that any one can pick up while you are throwing the opponent seems to invalidate a ton of characters throw game in this game imo. I was wondering your thoughts on the matter and what your intention was with those. As I said before I love your thoughts as an analyst so I’d love to hear what your thought process was. From a purely observer standpoint, I always thought if there was a way to translate the system used in Marvel ( immense damage scaling) on throws would be a good idea. Iono how you would go about that though hahaha. AP scaling but shorten the IAS burst requirement and remove the IAS burst bonuses from throws maybe? Iono, Im just am wondering how thatd work hahaha. Anyways Id love to hear your thoughts on that particular aspect of the fighting system. Because I do like combo throws in this game; think they give weight to throwing, but some get too much reward ( lvl1 confirm) and others get little to nothing ( <60 AP combo or no combo at all/super situational)
27. LightSage September 4, 2013 at 8:56 pm

    @Maj
    1 question. I am currently having trouble figuring out what moves cause twitch reactions and what caues light reactions. So Light Vs Twitch reactions. I used several characters moves in the lab to base it off the AP value you listed on page 2, but there are exceptions all around so it wouldn’t be accurate.

    So if you could give me a few example of each, using the characters moves in this game. This is also for my hypothetical buff list. I’m specifically designing my buff list around the guidelines that you listed on page 2 for maximum rationality & relevance.
28. khknight September 6, 2013 at 2:36 pm

    @Maj

    Hi maj, im new to your site.

    I wanted to get your opinion on this buff list i created for jak. What do you agree and disagree with? And is there anything that isn’t technically possible to due with the current game mechanics inplace? Here you go

    Revised balance list for jak for september 5th 2013. This is probably my best one yet, i’ve taken into account the different hit reactions and what is possible with certain ap values and created an ap burst that is possible with out a wall. I also included some really handy jump cancels for a few moves

    Squares (ground)

    slight start up increase on spinkick

    increased priority on uppercut, to make it better for countering verticsl drop attacks

    Dive attack can be jump cancelled, to make it better for combing after launching opponents. The move also does a flatten reaction to anyone it hits mid air and jak bounces off their body mid air. (Is it “technically” possible?)

    dash punch/uppercut combo ap gain changed from 5+ 20 to 10 + 20. Can also be jump cancelled, which can allow combos with other moves

    Squares (air)

    spinkick changed to a single hit ejecting move that gives 30 ap

    Dive attack can be jump cancelled, to make it better for combing after launching opponents. The move also does a flatten reaction to anyone it hits mid air and jak bounces off their body mid air. (Is it “technically” possible?)

    Decrease start up on air uppercut.

    hitbox size of the jetboard punch increased, to hit targets of all sizes more consistently. Fix initial jet board hit going through opponents. Fix second jetboard hit not coming out after successfully landing the first jetboard hit.

    Triangles (ground)

    arc cannon range increased, ap agin changed from 4 4 4 4 4 to 5 5 5 5. Decrease recovery significantly to allow jetboard punch follow up. (Is it technically possible?)

    peace maker start up increased and recovery decreased, ap gain increased to 10. Charge ability added, 1 second charge give more range and slightly larger hit box. 2-2.5 second charge= even more range, larger hitbox, 10 more ap gain, full launch reaction.

    pre release reflex beam range and angle brought back, with ap gain increased to 7 ap shot for a total of 20-21 ap which can give a mini launch reaction.( which could allow jetboard and peace maker punch followups)

    pre nerf blaster range brought back with ap gain increased to 8 a shot so the eject roll can come back.

    Triangles (air)

    arc cannon range increased, ap agin changed from 4 4 4 4 4 to 5 5 5 5. Decreased recovery.

    peace maker start up increased/ recovery decreased and charge ability added. Low charge = slight more range and slightly larger hit box with more recovery. High charge= more range, larger hitbox, 10 more ap gain and more recovery

    pre release reflex beam brought back, with ap gain increased to 7 ap shot for a total of 20-21 ap which can give a mini launch reaction.( which could allow jetboard punch and peace maker follow ups)

    Start up increased and rate of fire increased for blaster to land multiple shots consistently. Ap gain stays at 6 a shot

    circle (ground)

    gyro burster bounces off walls and can be held in place by pressing circle again after launching it.

    needle laser start up increased, pre patch tracking brought back but slightly better so all needles connect more consistently

    mass inverter range increased both horizontally and vertically with an added lingering ground hitbox that lasts for 1.5 seconds. Foes caught by mass inverter in mid air not lifted. (Im trying to make this move a better anti air and a trap that would punish players mistakes)

    wave concussor hitbox increased just enough to reach jaks legs but not get behind him

    circle (air)

    gyro burster bounces off walls and can be held in place by pressing circle again after launching it.

    needle laser start up increased, pre patch tracking brought back but slightly better so all needles connect more consistently

    mass inverter range increased both horizontally and vertically. Foes caught by mass inverter in mid air not lifted. It should be able to catch grounded opponents while falling better.

    wave concussor hitbox increased to reach opponents directly under jak

    Supers

    level 2 initial start up electrocution will now kill anyone directly infront or behind jak on start up, rear explosion size increased to match the front. The explosion hitbox lasts slightly longer instead of ending immediately. (basically, air dodging wont save you, only being out of the explosion range will)

    level 3 controls smoother and tighter along with time freeze start up increased

    Grab speeds increased to match the rest of the cast better
    End of buff list

    I’ve also created some combos, ap bursts too, that take advantages that i made. Let me know what you think of them

    Air wave consuccsor 20> air reflex beam 7> ground dash punch 10> cancel into ground pound 20 > jump/jump cancel into air forward square 35 = 92 ap

    Air wave concussor>needle laser> reflexer> jetboard
    20>20>21>35 96

    Air wave concussor 20>needle laser 20> reflex beam 21> peace maker 10 > jet board 35 = ap burst

    Air wave concussor 20> reflex beam 7> dash punch 10> short hop cancel into reflex beam 21> peace maker 10> jetboard punch 35
    = ap burst
29. khknight September 6, 2013 at 2:40 pm

    peace maker start up (increased) and recovery decreased, ap gain increased to 10. Charge ability added, 1 second charge give more range and slightly larger hit box. 2-2.5 second charge= even more range, larger hitbox, 10 more ap gain, full launch reaction.

    I meant to say decrease instead of decrease. This move should be faster in coming out and ending so it can combo better
30. khknight September 6, 2013 at 8:32 pm

    Now im starting to wish there was an editing option for comments.

    Bringing the old angle probably isnt a good idea, since it wont work for one of the combos is listed. Perhaps it should have a more acute angle that is halfway between the old and current angle
31. Bamsama September 9, 2013 at 12:22 pm

    why would u need to need to buff Jaks lvl3 or 2? those moves are fine as is; as long as he gets either more combability or utility out of his moveset he’ll be fine. Hes a very mobile character; his attacks just need tweaking so some of them link more than they do currently. Given his AP requirements I would like to see some more combos but lol easy AP burst wouldnt be a good idea for the nature of the character imo. Especially when you want his base moves buffed in terms of priority and hitbox duration as well. he either needs better reset potential (buffing Mass inverter hitbox duration, uppercut priority/recovery, dash punch 2nd hitbox size increase, and needles with a bit less recovery on landing) so he gets more hits per intended reset AND is better maintaining advantage in a reset situation, or you give him decent amount of burst in whatever way possible and you go from there.

    I mean with these changes right now there would already be issues with these cancels youre implementing; theres a myraid of new burst he would have with a jump cancel that allowed time for ground pound to hit. that already is a stupid wave concussor loop lol (ground dash punch> jump cancel wave concussor> down shot>ground dash punch etc.) a loop that i might add would link its his lvl2 and might even set up something from that mass inverter buff you were speaking of into lvl1. Plus he’d be gaining meter like crazy. I think you have some good ideas, but the sum of them just screams absurdity to me.

    You have to look at buffs in conjunction with his already good abilities; i feel a myriad of these suggested buffs were created to fit some fantasy combos you have in your head. However, they fail to address the terrible loops and AP burst that would come into being for a character whose AP requirements are based on his lacking of said combos. Jak needs buffs; but they have to be well thought out. Theres too many little nuances you could change that could break a character if you not careful. Thats just imo though.
32. khknight September 9, 2013 at 5:40 pm

    You make a good point about the loops, i hadn’t thought about it that far, i guess that idea should scrapped completely then. But then again, what about dante’s empty cancel loop, how is that any different? Its the same loop repeated over and over again into an ap burst yet no one complains about that.
33. Erazor September 11, 2013 at 10:01 am

    Well, Dante’s loop requires a lot more execution skill. On top of that he’s a melee/combo character which Jak is not. If the false bold cancel would be removed, Dante would lose too much stuff I guess. In the current form it may be a bit too powerful because of his ToD combo, but that’s mostly because of the low super cost and not because of the cancel.
34. Maj Post authorSeptember 11, 2013 at 4:35 pm

    Bamsama: That Big Daddy match was awesome, thanks. I’m still really glad his design worked out as well as it did, because it was pretty scary/uncertain at times. I imagine Zeus’ invincible roll bug would almost certainly be fixed in the patch, so you guys might want to start making suggestions for him based on that happening.

    I like the idea of making Jak’s U+Circle into a reliable anti-air, with some potential combo followup options. U+Triangle should definitely be a little better too, at least to the point where it can be used almost as effectively as Ratchet’s U+Triangle. Both of these are fairly easy changes though.

    As for throws, i’m inclined to agree that everyone needs a combo starter throw. That was my feeling when i asked the question earlier, so i was surprised when so many people said it was unnecessary.

    Not every character should be able to score an AP burst off their throws, but i think that issue takes care of itself for the most part. Generally speaking, the combo-heavy characters can probably generate more AP off a throw than the zoning-based characters because the melee/combo characters tend to have far superior extended juggle options.

    Ideally, nobody should be able to combo a lvl1 super off a throw – unless maybe they have no other reliable lvl1 confirms. That’s a hard standard to enforce, but not impossible. I don’t have any problem with lvl2/lvl3 confirms off throws though.

    And i kind of wish we’d separated throws into clearer categories. Like maybe every “combo starter” throw ejects 25 AP, every “hard knockdown” throw ejects 75 AP, and every “long-range clearout” throw ejects 100 AP? Maybe more, maybe less – those are just the first numbers that came to mind. To be honest, i was never a big fan of percentage-based AP eject values for throws.

    LightSage: It’s pretty easy to tell apart Light and Twitch reactions. Twitch reactions don’t interrupt the opponent’s action. Examples are Dante’s Triangle guns, Sir Daniel’s D+Circle flames, and Jak’s neutral Circle drone shots.

    Light reactions do interrupt the opponent’s action and cause 30 frames of hit stun. There are several different Light reaction animations, but they should all share the same length. Examples are both hits of Radec’s neutral Square, the first hit of Radec’s air neutral Square, the first hit of Radec’s F+Square, and all three hits of his neutral Triangle. Light reactions are the most common reactions in the game.

    khknight: I have to agree with Bamsama – it’s one thing to buff a handful of moves which are clearly underperforming, but you can’t buff his entire moveset and expect to accurately predict the outcome. Especially when you’re giving a zoning character all kinds of new combo tools like jump-cancels, which will inevitably lead to more AP burst situations than you’re expecting.

    Personally i really don’t think Jak needs a match-practical AP burst combo. It’s fine if he has a few impractical situational ones, but he doesn’t need a reliable one. He needs maybe a 25% boost in AP gen at most. He definitely doesn’t need his AP gen doubled, which is what would happen if he had AP burst combos from his most commonly used attacks.

    As for Dante’s loops, the main reason they were allowed to stay isn’t because they’re hard to perform. But rather because they fit his combat persona so well. He’s supposed to be a close-range melee-oriented combo-heavy character with weak/mediocre zoning tools. He should absolutely have an AP burst combo on the ground at close range. That’s not true for Jak though, because he can generate AP while keeping the fight at a range where Dante can’t generate any AP, for short (but significant) periods of time.

    If that last statement isn’t entirely accurate, you should be trying to think of ways to make it true instead of ways to turn Jak into Dante. Make sense?
35. khknight September 11, 2013 at 8:02 pm

    Look, i understand jak isnt a combo heavy character but…

    He’s literally the only one, THE ONLY ONE in the entire roster who cant ap burst without a wall.

    How is that fair? One stages like sandover he gets completely boned( which is ironic since this is his home turf)

    With a map with walls, jaks ap gain and overall combat efficiency drops significantly.

    This needs to change with the next patch one way or another.
36. khknight September 11, 2013 at 8:03 pm

    “With a map withOUT walls”

    Jesus, i really need to proof read before hitting sumbit. The allstars forums have given me bad habits.
37. bombrider September 11, 2013 at 10:28 pm

    It seems as though Jak is the most…controversial character to talk about in regards to his balance and design these days lol.
38. Bamsama September 12, 2013 at 12:07 am

    I think the whole idea with the throws is great Maj. I think combo starter throws should be in everyone’s move set. Again with some being Ap burst and others not so much. I do like the idea of allowing certain throws to eject or siphon base AP . Certain characters may be an “in your face” bruisers but dont get enough from their moveset in order to get a decent combo from their grabs ( like if Zeus had a grab that caused the opponent to be air borne he’d get maybe up square> air up square>air neutral square, however the up square to air up square is really hard to link spacing wise for some silly reason). Either enabling combo set ups to do so or giving certain throws higher base ap ejects would solidify some grappling archetypes within the game. I think that idea would work really good. It would just make a far better usefulness to characters grabs as a whole and a nice utility. I do think lvl1 confirms from grab should exist unless theres some crazy situational wall bounce set up. if a character DOES get one then it should be very low ap combo to lvl1 or even just grab into lvl1. itll make their grab only threatening once they have a lvl1 and then u can do away with any dominant lvl1 confirms and boom you have a sick grappler.

    As for Zeus i think that having some kind of solid throw would be huge. even having one of those eject or hard knockdown giving him a solid amount of AP would fit well with his character. i do think gaining more reward off a regular teleport like air neutral/forward square alone would boost his reset game and give him a little more reward for a move that is so punishable on block.

    How do you feel about Nariko in this current 1 v 1 metagame? I dont know if you have seen her recently but her current form has it pretty hard. I do miss her awesome swag combos even though air down triangle old air hit reaction was so strong in 2s. I used to love it for combos to set up proper resets ( she had soo many awesome resets at that time). What do you think could make her a solid balanced character at this point? I know some of the top mains of her believed down circle should be a guardbreak along with its aerial verision due to the start up from the move and end lag of it. I know they wanted that and a combo grab. what do you think about that?
39. Bamsama September 12, 2013 at 12:17 am

    oh and hers a cool video of a Zeus players 1 v 1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UEppSaguedw

    you should check out videos on that channel. Its our channel for our online fight club. it has our community podcast on certain characters and what not as well. Anyways its always a pleasure hearing your ideas on all these things. hope to hear from you soon!
40. JushtFinisht September 13, 2013 at 12:58 am

    @Bamsama

    While you have the topic of Nariko fresh in your mind browsing through these replies, I’m just wondering what NERFs you would consider for her, if at all, Maj and Bam. I’m still a big proponent of buffing Nariko, but I have been having such a hard time thinking of what to nerf about her to “balance out” the buffs she might receive, seeing as how she already had four good things about her nerfed in the 1.10 patch.

    Don’t get me wrong – I only ask this because a user on the official PSASBR forums asked why most people did not consider nerfs for her.
41. khknight September 13, 2013 at 2:31 pm

    One more thing, about giving jak cancels and better combos. What about ratchet? outside of allstars, ratchet and jak are very similar yet ratchet gets multiple cancels which allows him to do some ap bursts. That, and even without the cancels he can still ap burst with his moveset.

    I cant for the life of me figure out why the combat team thought this was ok, and just pass this off as satisfactory.
42. khknight September 15, 2013 at 7:28 am

    One more thing?

    Could a patch beta had been possible for you guys to do if you wanted one?

    Like for example, zipper interactive had an after release beta for MAG to test a patch that would bring major balabce changes, game modes and other game changing features. This beta allowed zipper to test all the major changes they wanted and see how to community would react without hurting the main game. This beta extremely helped mag in the long run and i wished more developers would do this with their games.

    So back to the question, woud it have been possible?
43. Bamsama September 15, 2013 at 9:43 am

    @JushtFinisht

    honestly Nariko is a character I love to play and I was saddened by the nerfs that took place. Given the power she demonstrated in the only visible scene online, it all made sense. I just regret not having the time to head over to teach some people until its too late. I did get to play with NerdJosh and LLND though, and while they are solid players in their other games, they were not aware of some of the differences that reside in these platform fighters. I couldve made more active suggestions to the developers who were at Super Arcade ( as I live 20 mins away from it) and done something there. Anyways that was quite the tangent lol. I think as of right now Nariko doesnt need any nerfs at all; she needs some core buffs that augment her gameplay.

    Nariko has some strong pressure tools however they are kind negated by losing to one primary defensive options; block. She has no tools that punish a character for blocking; her throw game is one of the worst in the game. I think she clearly needs to have a comboable throw. I dont think it would be over bearing in the slightest. I knew a way to bring back a.d2 air to air hit reaction as well I would. something like speeding up the a.d2 air to air hit reaction. to make that doesnt necessarily combo into anything due to the air to air reaction but setups a mix up situation like grab/n3 with grab punishing roll/blocking/ and n3/a.n3/a.d2 punishing starting jump. Something where she could have a viable reason to setup resets while making reset situation can be react to and wont be broken online. Again thats just me though.

    i think throw combo would help alone; and perhaps something useful with d3. Its unfortunate because that move has very little use and reward for nariko in virtually every game mode. It just not worth the risk or effort. Initially I thought it could be a great landing trap to catch landing frames. However although its a constant hitbox when character land into it, they can block it. Online if you go to grab them, they just immediately appear on the ground. I did test it offline and it seems to work but i really still confused with the landing lag on normal jumps ( no aerials) in this game. Sometimes it seems to exist, sometimes not.
    If that move was able to punish landings as well then i think itd be worth the use if read an air dodge (otherwise they just eject) and would be another tool give her more solid options.

    Her moveset as a whole is great but still is weakened by her AP requirements and lack of strong super outside of lvl3 ( her lvl2 confirms/setups are weak for a lvl2 and her supers arent great in FFA comparatively due to certain properties). However with those buffs I think she a solid but not overbearing character. Notice I didnt talk about any nerfs? There simply isnt a good reason for any in this current metagame. ESPECIALLY if people know how to punish her. She was nerfed to kingdom come in 1.10; all her quintessential tools were hard nerfed. No reason to do it again.

    @Maj

    I was discussing some things with the top Zeus in our online communities in regards to buffing Zeus without the inclusion of the extended roll glitch. We thought that making uncharged teleport slightly safer would allow to be utilized as better approach tool as it is now ( whereas right now it gets hard punished by a ton of the cast). In tandem with that, having air forward square have 25 armor, up square> air up square> forward/neutral square being accessible combo while not allowing up square to combo into lvl1. Last we were thinking of allowing his clone spawn to have some low armor to set it up ( or some speed boost) and for Zeus Clone to activate when an opponents hurtbox touches it. Which would give Zeus some solid option to pin his opponent down temporarily. How do you think those buffs would work out Maj?

    oh and one more Q lol. I noticed that Zeus’ down circle was initially suppose to store a armor charge. Obviously the idea was scrapped, but how do you think you couldve implemented that and made it balanced? My inferred answer is No, especially with FFA and 2v2, however, I just wanted to hear your opinion on the matter. I should really drive down to Santa Monica and fin some way to contact them lol. Theyre so close to me compared to everyone else in the community.
44. khknight September 16, 2013 at 2:17 pm

    Yo Maj, thanks for communicating with us. It really means A LOT, especially since SSM doesn’t communicate with us at all and haven’t done so since august. You’ve done a lot more for us then they have, so again thanks.

    On that note, i was wondering if you could look over the new buff list i made for jak and tell me what you think

    ++ mandatory changes that should come with the next patch
    + changes that are recommended, but if they don’t make it in then its no big deal

    Move name: current status

    Squares

    SpinKick: really inconsistent
    ++Ground spinkick changed to be a single spin, single 30 ap ejecting hit move, it should still have the ability to move forward and the ability to hit multiple targets at once.
    +decrease start up so it punishes faster after block
    ++air spinkick changed so a single hit does an immediate 30 ap eject, it remains the same as a multi spin move though. So his mobility in the air with it isn’t affectted.

    Uppercut: its ok
    +increased priority on uppercut, to make it better for countering vertical drop attacks

    Diveattack: has potential for better combos
    ++Dive attack has less recovery.
    +The move also does a flatten reaction to anyone it hits mid air and jak bounces off their body mid air.

    Dash/jet board punch: inconsistent, misses alot
    ++dash punch/uppercut combo ap gain changed from 5+ 20 to 10 + 20
    ++hitbox size of the jetboard punch increased, to hit targets of all sizes more consistently or change intial hit reaction of the dashboard from a light reaction to a light launch reaction(like what the arc weilder has). Fix second jetboard hit not coming out after successfully landing the first jetboard hit. Fix characters being able to block after getting hit with the first jetboard hit
    +uppercut follow up can come out after a missed dash punch and a blocked dash punch

    Triangles

    arc wielder: its ok, but easily gets overshadowed by jaks other moves
    +arc cannon range increased by a meter
    + hit reaction on grounded oppenents changed from a light launch reation to a light reaction(like whats on the blaster) and ap gain changed from 4 4 4 4 4 to 6 6 6 6 6 for a somersault eject reaction.
    *aesthetics change* make the arc wielder stream move fluidly when lifted a d lowered(look at sweet tooths circle flamethrower for reference)

    Peace maker: under performer
    ++ start up and recovery changed to match ratchets war monger, ap gain increased to 10.
    +range and chains hits on multiple bunched up enemies size better

    Beam reflexor: heavy underperformer
    ++range increased to match the blaster
    ++ angle changed to be more acute(halfway between pre release and current angle), with ap gain increased to 8 ap shot for a total of 24 ap which can give a mini launch reaction. shots bounce off of enemies only once. decrease recovery on single air shots

    Blaster: victim of uneeded nerfing
    ++pre patch 1.10 blaster brought back
    +Ariel version Start up increased and rate of fire increased for blaster to land multiple shots consistently. Ap gain stays at 6 a shot

    circle

    Gyroburster: ok, could be better
    ++gyro burster bounces off walls.
    +can be held in place by pressing circle again after launching it.

    Needle laser: inconsistent, needs it anti air potential back
    ++needle laser start up increased, tracking improved to go after people within a 180 degree angle in front of jak(directly above, below but not behind)
    ++ ap gain inconsistency on characters in different hit reactions(like butt drop) fixed

    Mass inverter: an under performer
    ++range increased both horizontally and vertically(.5 a meter in front and back and 1 meter on top) OR increases the amount of frames the mass inverter stays on screen.
    +Add a lingering ground only hitbox(the rings) that lasts for 1.5 seconds.
    ++Foes caught by mass inverter in mid air not lifted. (Im trying to make this move a better anti air and a trap kill confirm)
    + aerial bottom range(from jaks knees and lower) increased to hit grounded opponents better

    Wave concussor:victim of overnerfing, ground range is pathetic
    ++wave concussor volume increased just enough to reach jaks legs but not get behind him
    ++Air wave concussor hitbox increased to reach opponents directly under jak

    Supers

    Level 2: still one the weakest and worthless level 2’s in the game
    ++initial start up electrocution will now kill anyone directly infront or behind jak , explosion radius increased horizontally on both Sides.The explosion hitbox frames increased to last longer than air dodge frames. (basically, air dodging wont save you, only being out of the explosion range will) the explosion still comes out when dark jak touches the water.

    Level 3: frustratingly clunky and occasionally gets trapped on stage geometry
    ++controls smoother and tighter
    +time freeze range increase

    ++Grab speeds increased to match the rest of the cast better
    + up grab hit reaction and recovery changed to combo into other attacks.
45. Maj Post authorSeptember 16, 2013 at 3:47 pm

    No problem. I understand how you guys feel so i’m just trying to do what little i can, by providing any answers i can. But i’m still in North Carolina until Tuesday night, so i won’t be able to respond to the last batch of questions until i get home and find some free time.
46. Bamsama September 17, 2013 at 9:18 am

    No worries Maj; take youre time man Im sure the travel was enjoyable but exhausting. Great Combo Video btw! Again I think I speak for all of us when I say thank you for taking the time to converse with us. It means a ton to the community as a whole. My only regret is not communicating to you sooner; I think given your expertise and the top lvl players we have on SuperSonyBros and the Fight Club stream we have on twitch we couldve definitely ironed somethings out and maybe aided you all in promoting the game more. As I said before, I think it is an enjoyable game and has great potential. Just a few game mechanic changes from traditional fighters didnt translate well. ( the safety of landing aerials in a game where characters have air dodge, double jumps, aerial movement to re space an aerial on the fly and make it safe virtually always), general lack of landing lag from jumping ( again air dodge double jumps and mobility options boost jumping even moreso) etc. Even having a base 2 frame landing penalty just for jumping while increasing aerial landing lag ( obviously depending on the move, ex: Raidens air down triangle has a fairly slow start up so its landing lag pre patch was justified while air down square for Fat Princess is fast and when done at proper height is virtually unpunishable which shouldnt be). these things are actually cornerstones of Smash and while you want to make a fresh series, those particular assets I believe are necessary in a platform fighter/ brawler/ whatever you wanna call it lol. Otherwise the air is just too strong. But yeah as I said I really hope if they even have a sequel they will bring you on board. I think you have a very good eye for these things and seem to notice the issues that really need adjusting. thanks again for being for taking on this unofficial PR job LOL. Its truly appreciated.

    also khknight: Jaks lvl2 isnt one of the weakest and worthless level 2s in the game. it has better KCs that ST, Nariko, Emmett, Toro and Zeus; Jaks lvl2 can use his lvl2 to beat out jump ins, as a punishment tool, is still usable on HKD. And while ratchet has slightly better combos into his lvl2 he doesnt have the option of getting killed out of the transformation of his lvl2 like Ratchet does. you should just make dive ground bounce reaction on air to air opponents; especially with its risk reward factor. then ull get small little combo and a lvl2 confirm that works air to air and is not overbearing. I dont think thats too bad. especially if he was able to build meter a little better he would be fine. He has a great lvl3 and almost instant hitbox out of his lvl2 that can abused like some other top tiers. Especially if his lvl2 doesnt cost that much ( im not sure about the AP cost) but with his increased AP gain due to combos his lvl2 and lvl3 are effectively getting buffed by staying the same AP requirement. plus old needle laser in tandem with a greater mass converter and wave concussor will help a ton with getting more resets. At least thats just my opinion; though im sure youre not asking for it lol.
47. Bamsama September 18, 2013 at 8:45 am

    how hype would Zeus be if Clone functioned like Aegis Reflector? Thats seriously what i thought it would be in tandem with him guard breaks. thatd be so baller. Just a random tidbit. I wouldve enjoyed seeing that. plus it would have made his knockdown better while justifying such a move to be a normal move due to rolls and lack of cross ups in this game ( thats where the guard breaks would come in im sure).
48. LightSage September 20, 2013 at 3:02 pm

    @Maj
    Thanks for the reply on those 2 reactions Maj. I wanted to be SURE that what I had in mind was right, because as you said some light reactions have different animations, which that is what confused me. Some twitch reactions seem stronger than others though, but that might depend on rate of fire.

    @Khknight. I told you to overlook your buff list before sharing. You haven’t had the proper experience and done nearly enough proper testing to make an according balance list. For example, N1 start up doesn’t need a start up buff (it has a balanced start up, not fast but neutral unlike D3 though, sadly) and your N2 changes contradict each other.

    @Bam Jak’s supers are not fine even if he gets buffs in his standard moveset, well for my changes at least. Excluding level 1, because that super require a person to actually main Jak to understand it’s faults, Jak’s Level 2 is one of the worst level 2s in the game which only became – a kind of viable- post-patch through an initial stun effect that hits enemies in front of Jak, which makes it a barely viable super, not good. The 25% speed increase is cool along with ppl who touch him in air die (which won’t happen a lot outside the stun), but those aren’t as helpful as it seemed from the patch notes and then tested/used later on. Without the stun, Jak would have the worst level 2 in the game. Excluding the stun, the super is horrible thus if you miss the stun, any opponent who actually “knows” the super should be safe (with how many avoiding options there are presented to you when he misses), because it’s very very easy to dodge. When I go up against other Jak’s they can hardly ever land it because I know the stun is what makes it viable, and with the super requiring an opponent to be grounded for the KC, it’s not much of any kind of threat (again I know this because I know how the super works and experimented with it many many times). Overall the super is lacking, underwhelming and even debatable at times if it’s better than his level 1 or not. It’s hard to say most of the time when it comes to thought – sometimes I debate with myself which is truly better. With that said, I respect it’s appearance in All-Stars (@Maj), but it could have been designed a bit more powerful/better since Dark Jak already was limited in this game once he wasn’t given the potential to be a controllable level 2 super like Ratchet’s Raiden’s & Sly’s level 2. Then his level 1 doesn’t make up for his level 2 at the sametime as well, especially with no KCS.

    @Maj: My buffs for level 2 are simple:
    – Back range of the Dark Bomb is no longer halved in range and now has the same exact range as the frontal radius thus making it a full 360 AOE bomb – I don’t understand why this super wasn’t later on buffed to be like that since the bomb is already insufficient-like and has been complained about by a lot of people constantly since launch. It’s completely understandable for Jak’s D3 getting a radius nerfed pre-game release for balance which is what it was balancing, but his level 2 super shouldn’t have shared the same fate in terms of 360 range.

    – Dark Bomb now works in water when used from a surface above water. It currently gets canceled when used from a surface that later on puts him into the water, which is very weird, bad and a complete waste of meter. I see this one as an oversight. Also Jak was able to do this same move in water from jumping from a surface in his games, so even more of a reason why it should be in this game.

    – Dark Jak is no longer completely nullified when hit with by any of Raiden’s level 2 stunning capabilities/powers whether it’s the one upon using level 2 or one during level 2 during the jump arc animation. I don’t see how an uncontrollable BUT also transformation super is completely negated when hit by a a status effect move such as Raiden’s, especially Dark Jak. I strongly believe Dark Jak should have priority for many reasons.

    – Dark Bomb either has active frames (because it has none now. Cole’s level 1 even has active frames thus making his level 1 a much bigger threat when in the area of it) or Dark Jak gets some invulnerability frames at the end of the bomb animation, because as of right now Dark Jak can be hit by non-super attacks immediately after performing the DB- very very unfair. If any character is the same way it’s a very short percentage of them. So before his end transformation animation is finished he can be combo’ed by any non-super attack. So when you have Jak’s level 2 that has long recovery, no active frames on bomb and Dark Jak having no invul- frames, that’s pretty bad especially all together, and that’s excluding the other faults of the super.

    Level 3 is overrated and has always been so. It can 2 stock in 1v1 sure, but that doesn’t mean it’s alright. A super getting the job done doesn’t make it good, great, balanced and etc. The controls are a bit bothersome and play a big part in Jak’s kill potential, but I think that’s some-what balanced. His level 3 is also the 5th shortest non-cinematic level 3 in the game (being at 10.4-10.5 sec) with Sly’s, Cole’s, Fat Princess’ and Sir Dan’s all being slightly shorter than Jak’s. At first his super seem fine, but flying around with a shield is not as deadly as it seemed post-release. In short, flying around with a shield is no longer as big of a threat as it was in the early days of this game’s release. With how much the game has evolved, with certain characters mobility and with time having passed by, dodging his level 3 isn’t that hard anymore. In short (because discussing Jak will always be described in large amount of texts that no-one really wants to read) my lv3 buffs would also be simple:

    – Duration of overall super increase by 0.5 or 1 sec. (The theme song duration shouldn’t even be a concern with these short amount of secs).

    – Flash Freeze doubled in range.

    Everything else for his level 3 is fine as long as these happen. Jak’s level 3 meta now is all light shield and dashing, that’s all you see. That’s just cliche & sad. (Most of other transformation level 3 powers and non-cinematic level 3s are all effective and worth using and won’t screw them over so hard when missed or messed up ONE time). From that you can easily tell how his other moves aren’t worth using. Light Blast i’m somewhat fine with and can deal with, but the duration and flash freeze are not fine at all and need attention. The duration buff is so Jak’s can ACTUALLY have the time to mix things up with other moves without them all costing Jak valuable time towards his kill potential, which is why we all constantly rely on the Light Shield as if it was are only option. Now, since the Flash freeze move doesn’t slow down an area in this game a range buff doubled in range shouldn’t be a problem especially with it’s speed rate travel, start up frames, recovery, (and how easy it is to air dodge or short hop air dodge because of it’s speed travel rate) which is also why I was cautious on the duration buff. Jak’s would finally be able to use a viable move that wouldn’t screw them over even when successfully landed. It’s much easier if these things were seen, watched or experienced first hand.
49. khknight September 20, 2013 at 4:10 pm

    LES: i did look back at my list. I made the proper changes as well as did the testing and i believe i made a good balance list. Better than yours and just because you disagree with an idea, that doesn’t mean you’re right. (Plus the N1 start up buff wasnt a ++) the n2 changes don’t contradict at all, if they do then please explain. Finally, i don’t think you understand the game mechanics enough to make a valid buff list, i think you misinterpreted about what maj said about ap gain being tied to hit reactions. Then that affected ur understanding of the results you got from your so called “tests” Our last few msgs proved that to me.

    And to put the final coffin, ima gonna ask maj see if i was right about the arc weilder.

    Maj, is it possible for the hit reaction on the last hit of jaks arc weilder to be a flying eject, if the ap gain was increased from 44444=20 to 66666=30?

    Right now its a mini launch reaction and those reactions require a minimum of 20 ap. (based on my research from looking at the at all the different hit reactions and their ap gain on shoryken.com
50. khknight September 20, 2013 at 4:15 pm

    I think you misinterpreted what maj said about….
    So called test. Our last few msgs…
    And the put the final nail in the coffin….
    Ask maj and see….

    When i type these, i always think i didnt skip or word or left a word where it shouldn’t be. Ofcourse it doesnt ever turn out that way :(, boy i wish everything had an edit option.