438 thoughts on “PASBR Patch 1.10 Balance Changes”

1. Maj Post authorNovember 24, 2013 at 2:47 pm

   Sweet, thanks for going through the trouble of deleting patches to test it out. Haha i still wouldn’t bet against you guys finding some crazy way to shorten manual turnaround time. But if you’re confident that removing Raiden’s ability to change directions during lvl1 super startup is all it would take to eliminate his U+Triangle confirms, then i think it’s a good change to propose.
2. JushtFinisht December 15, 2013 at 2:15 am

   Hey Maj, how do you feel about throws currently having armor? I’m unsure if this was intentional or not, but online, throws have 30 (31?) AP of armor that can bypass through regular attacks. I have actually seen my attacks gain AP, however I am still caught in a throw if both the throw from opponent and my attack connect at the same time. The throw will take priority.

   Unfortunately, due to throws having this armor, this encourages more air-camping. I was also wondering about how you feel about jumping and the air being so prevalent in this game. Did you guys intend for the game to be so jumpy and aerial?
3. Maj Post authorDecember 16, 2013 at 1:05 pm

   I think it’s fine. Throws certainly don’t need to be made any weaker than they currently are. Combat is a little jumpier than i’d like personally, but blaming that on throws is a bit of a stretch. That “armor” behavior doesn’t come into play at all in 1v1 matches and they’re just as jumpy.
4. JushtFinisht December 16, 2013 at 4:50 pm

   I admit – I think I was making throws out to be better than they are in my last comment. However, some characters do have much better throws than others, whereas some throws are particularly awful, like Sir Dan and Toro’s.

   To clarify though, I definitely wasn’t making out throws to be the sole reason combat is so jumpy, just that it’s something players have to respect, and since throws are avoided by being aerial, that’s just something that contributes to the highly aerial nature of the game (along with avoiding grounded hit reactions like Crumple, Butt-Drop, and Kneel).

   As a matter of fact, this leads into the fact that short-hop air-dodges (done after the peak of a jump where they can cancel into a dodge, block, or neutral position on landing) have absolutely no landing lag whatsoever. It’s one of the safest ways to approach – for any character. The high level players in the community want to try to curb this down by suggesting a small 2-frame landing penalty to this type of short hop. I’m just wondering what your take on this would be. I know the last patch you and SuperBot made attempted to put some kind of penalty to aerials with the 5-frame landing lag on aerial attacks.
5. Maj Post authorDecember 17, 2013 at 9:15 pm

   Personally i think the best solution is to improve and standardize those “awful” throws. Maybe all throws should be split into three categories: eject throws, hard knockdown throws, and launcher throws. All eject throws should cause the opponent to lose 15% AP, flatten throws drain should 10% AP, and launcher throws should drain 5% AP.

   Every character should have one of each. That’d be my solution, though i haven’t looked through every character to see if this would be possible without changing animations.

   As for adding a 2-frame landing penalty to air dodge, it seems like a good idea to me. Implementing it might be kind of tricky, but i’m sure it’s possible.
6. Bamsama December 22, 2013 at 8:04 am

   These are the changes we ended up suggesting in a podcast of ours:

   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iUdUQPM881k

   1.Landing Lag
   a.Current Lack there of
   i.As the game is now there is no landing lag. this in tandem with other variables of jumping (such as airdodging, double jump, command dashes/movement, lack of air to air combos to the majority of the casts) offers VERY minimal risk with high reward. Short hopping and instantly airdodging ( known as SHADing) offers invincibility throughout the jump and has no penalty due to the lack of landing lag. This creates a very polarizing tactic and lowers the depth of the game.

   b.2 Frame overall Landing Lag: If there was an addition of 2 frame landing lag ( when a character is landing from a jump doing nothing or an airdodge they would be unable to perform an action for 2 frames including the ability to block) This would be enough to give some sort of liability to jumping while not noticeably retracting from the overall movement within the game. This would not affect aerial landing lag, which is the 5 frame landing lag penalty from landing while your aerial is still in progress. This also would not apply to aerials that suffer their own unique lag such as dive kicks/ (Raiden aerial forward triangle, Parappa Skateboard Dive, etc.)

   c.Down-tech 5 frame Landing Lag: A major plan of SuperBot before their work on the game was curtailed, was implementing a 10 frame landing lag to down- techs once the opponent lands. While it would address the community concerns for more punishable tech options, we believe that 5 frames of landing lag would suffice for a probable punish due to the innate frame advantage from resetting a character and would allow down teching to still be viable.
   2.Down/Neutral Tech Canceling: In the current build of this game an opponent is able to cancel their tech flip at any point in time with a double jump and then an air dodge in any direction; virtually making a myriad of safer teching variants. Removing the ability to jump out of a down and neutral tech allows the following options left for an opponent in a reset position:

   1. neutral tech
   neutral tech+airdodge: ( default 2 frame landing lag if character is landing while air dodge is taking place)
   Neutral tech+ attack: ( default 2 frames of landing lag takes place unless character lands while the aerial is taking place. If character lands with an aerial they suffer the traditional 5 frames landing lag penalty for aerials)
   down tech airdodge: (suffer 5 frames of landing lag)
   down tech+attack: ( suffer 5 frames of landing lag UNLESS you land with attack used. Then character would suffer the greater of the two: a) 5 frames of landing lag b) landing penalty of your attack)

   3.2nd Jump Renewal: when a character uses their double jump, if they are ever hit by an attack while airborne they will receive their double jump back. this allows characters to air stall ( the act of staying airborne to delay a game) or reuse a double jump to further avoid combat(being able to double jump away from a bad situation is a huge thing in platform fighters and is a major part of what makes being aerial strong). While not used as much in casual play ( most casuals don’t know they receive their double jump back) in competitive play it can be easily abused by zoning characters such Sackboy ( who’ll receive their bounce pad back and can set up a teleport checkpoint) or characters that need time to set up such as Kat ( who gains a free debris spawn by being it and double jump to a point no character can reach) or Emmett ( can call turret and ammo without any repercussions). This will make jumps more precious and would deter the use of a exceptionally low risk/decent to high reward option that double jump consist of.

   4. Better average to dodges:
   While most platform fighters have a variation to airdodges and rolls among the cast, there is a huge disparity in this game. IF there was less of a disparity in terms of length and invincibility it would balance the game more appropriately as well.

   5. The Existence of a Timer in Stock/Kill Game Types: All fighters have a timer even though it isn’t the primary game type. It gives an urgency to players and allows for a better gameplay experience rather than encouraging minimal risk playstyles. Something that the community desperately needs; casual and competitive.

   General Bugs
   1.Fix indestructible obstacles: Online there are many traps and mines that become indestructible. This allows characters to receive an arbitrary buff and gives a gross advantage to mine/trap characters when it occurs. Fixing this will be very helpful in online gameplay
   2.Desync: Frame Desyncing gives us the feeling of lagless gameplay but is very obstructive to competitive play in moments where a few frames make a difference. It causes events as character teleportation from a full screen away, characters having air supers, an opponent being knocked away only to appear next to you and kill you. It also messes up particular spacing; giving certain moves larger hitboxes than their offline iterations, allow players to jump onto traps and grab without no consequence, etc. While this is clearly an online issue, in modern day fighters ( especially a new series) having a solid online experience is conducive to building a community and eventually an offline scene. This is probably the MAJOR issue any competitor in this game or any other fighter would ask for; proper online play. If anything can be done to solve these issues it would be greatly appreciated.
   a.Grab: Another huge thing that occurs is guaranteed grab resets out of ground combo strings. This occurs due to desyncing. It allows an opponent at the end of hit stun to be grabbed because the game will not read the jump input from the opponent ( due to desyncing). While seemingly minimal, this causes a ton of Touch of Deaths ( a Touch of Death is a combo done that builds enough meter from 0 ap to gain a lvl 1 super then ends with a level 1 super for the kill). This property also allows infinite ground combos on Sly because his counter or teleport will not be read in time, allowing the attacker a window in which Sly isn’t being comboed but Sly cannot do anything to get away from the hit. NOTE: these are ONLINE ONLY issues, they do NOT work offline. These guaranteed grab resets and infinites on Sly do need to be removed. If at that can be researched netcode-wise that’d be much appreciated.
   3.AP Burst ( Infinite Avoidance System Ejection)
   a.Invisible Mines: When an opponent is ejected by the infinite avoidance system (will be referred to as an AP burst from here on out) if they place any mine/trap during that period it becomes invisible to the attacker. This seems to be the cause of a myriad of invisibility glitches such as Good/Evil Cole’s lightning tether Sir Dan’s axe, etc. Please look into these things if possible (again this is an ONLINE ISSUE).

   b.Premature AP burst: When the attacker combos someone to or past the 100AP threshold the Infinite Avoidance System ejects the opponent away. However online, an attacker may be comboing an individual and the AP burst happens before the 100AP threshold is released. This obviously ruins meter gain and potential combos into a kill ( kill confirms)
   c.2 places at once: One of the most major problems of desyncing is this; when you are ejected after being combo’d via an AP burst you appear at different places dependent on which screen is being viewed.On the opponents screen you are falling down with no attacks, however on your screen you are free to move as you would offline.
   This is very confusing because it removes the ability to chase your opponent after an AP burst because they simply cant see what you are doing. However if they perform a super to the iteration of your character on their screen that is falling helplessly then they will receive a kill REGARDLESS of where you actually are. This is a huge detriment to intended playstyle of the game and definitely needs to be fixed.
7. Bamsama December 22, 2013 at 8:28 am

   1 to 5 are the actual changes we are seeking and the rest are just fixes to current issues. Based on my knowledge from playing platform fighters such as Brawl from a competitive level, this game at a top lvl, and being part of the Smash Lab ( a group created in the smashboards community to break down all the data in the game in terms of hitboxes, hurtboxes, frame data ( and all that comes with) as well as traditional fighters, I saw these as the best changes to improve this game as a whole from where it is now.

   How difficult would it be to place a 1v1 online mode in this game Maj? Do you know? It seems as if it only require a simple adjustment of free for all with the ability to fight no items or items and a stock count along with some leader boards. I don’t know how difficult that is in the back-end though. I think that’d build the community up even more. Especially due to the fact they’re still some people who play this game and aren’t even aware of the potential competitive aspect of it. I do believe 1 v 1 ranked, ( just a 1 v 1 online in general) would facilitate that.

   Lastly I am going to try to do another event at 1337loungelive again ( they had a promotion on the front page of Twitch last time so that was good for some publicity) hopefully you could come out and support next time around. Itd actually be good to see a good amount of you from SuperBot ( you, Omar, Clock, etc.) because we do want to support your hard work and have been trying to do so the best we can. Im trying to introduce this game to the Smash community moreso because they have a better innate understanding of these types of games. I know LLND and NerdJosh were interested in the game and hopefully I can meet with them again and train them. Anyways yeah if you are interested in helping out ( I know you are probably busy quite often) let me know as I do live in the Southern Californian Area ( LA/OC).
8. Grashi December 22, 2013 at 3:42 pm

   Changing the throws for Dan and toro are simple fixes and odd that they aren’t in really.

   Toro: Up throw works as a launcher. Maybe reduce their height and lessen his recovery so he can combo from it.

   Forward throw already eject tornados

   Down throw could flatten. Though it’s screw him over more than it helps him.

   Dan:
   Down throw could flatten on the last hit.

   Up throw just needs reduced recovery, but if he could combo from it, he gets a kill confirm off of throw.

   Forward throw eject rolls already.

   No animation changes needed.
9. Maj Post authorDecember 22, 2013 at 5:24 pm

   Bamsama: Unfortunately global abilities are difficult/risky to change, but #1-4 should be possible for an experienced combat designer. It’s a lot of work because there’s a lot of special cases and character-specific gotchas to consider, but it’s doable (assuming there’s enough time to iron out the details). Something like down/neutral tech air dodge having 5 frames of landing lag whereas normal air dodge has 2 frames of landing lag basically means creating a whole separate state for that version of air dodge.

   Although i have to say, i disagree with #3. Restoring double jump is absolutely something casual players notice. There’s nothing more annoying than not being able to double-jump away from a stage hazard after getting caught in a long combo or series of attacks just because you double-jumped eight seconds ago. I remember when this design decision was implemented and it made the game feel a lot better. Is it really so bad in competitive play? I mean, it can’t be that abusable if it involves getting hit, right?

   Your 5th suggestion is actually the hardest one because it involves a lot of programming changes, new network code, and changes to the menu UI. It would take some convincing to get people on board for that. Even though i totally agree that (Ranked) 1v1 Matchmaking would be an awesome feature, it became a lot less likely once SuperBot was taken out of the equation.

   As for 1337loungelive, keep me updated! To be honest, i’m a little hesitant about showing up on stream, because i thought you were talking about hanging out off camera at a tournament or arcade or something. But if i’m free, i’ll consider it.
10. bc1910 December 26, 2013 at 8:54 am

    Double jump restoration massively limits the potency of aerial tech traps and landing traps, which would be great ways to discourage overly jumpy combat which you have said you aren’t keen on (echoing the thoughts of the community). Also, it just kills the thought process behind a lot of supposedly risky moves. For example, you can hit Kat out of her debris summon after she jumps and dashes diagonally upward (for maximum height), but who cares? Your spike probably won’t reach her, so you’ll induce some kind of air hitstun, and she can then recover and air dash even higher, getting debris up for free since most characters won’t be able to reach her.
11. Maj Post authorDecember 27, 2013 at 1:45 am

    That’s one special case. Let’s say Kat’s debris projectiles were turned into twitch attacks. Or what if Kat’s air debris summon had normal fall gravity instead of causing her to float in place and hitting her at any time caused her to lose all summoned debris?

    Besides Kat summoning debris for free, what else makes double jump restoration so exploitative? I’m keen on reducing jumpy combat, but i’m also extremely reluctant to disable a feature that makes the game feel better.
12. bc1910 December 27, 2013 at 7:11 am

    Mostly the fact that you can’t trap landings and can double jump out of aerial tech traps for free. There’s really just no risk to double jumping away after eating an attack, and I don’t think there should be a be-all-end-all option to escape 99% of traps as double jump currently is. Obviously I don’t want inescapable traps and hence can understand things like Big Daddy’s Air Down Circle ice puddle being slow, but I don’t like the fact that I can read my opponent’s double jump or double jump airdodge and be unable to get the punish I deserve because they’re just too high up. In terms of landing traps, restoring the double jump makes it very difficult to effectively predict and punish a landing which is extremely important in a game where the air is so strong. Ultimately being able to double jump again after being hit just makes the whole air camping thing really really easy to exploit.

    Using Super Smash Bros Brawl as an example, not being able to double jump again isn’t that big a deal in terms of stage hazards. Most characters have some sort of mobility option to escape and if you don’t, well… does it really matter? Aside from things like the pit on Alden’s Tower, stage hazards reduce a bit of meter. Ultimately we’re trying to improve the competitive element of the game and I think the potential annoyance with stage hazards is massively outweighed by the potential improvement to combat depth.
13. Bamsama December 27, 2013 at 11:20 am

    yeah virtually every character can alter their movement with some move if they dont have double jump in order to get away from stage hazards. This is something tbh most platform fighters do and casual and competitive players are fine with it ( competitive players actually liking it). You need to understand that it encourage polarizing gameplay. most of cast cant get much out of a hit past short hop height. So people will just tap a character and they will run away some more. Happens in casuals and competitive. If there was a strong air to air combat in the game then i would agree but theres not. You also need to realize that this is a game with an air dodge mechanic. It also happens to be an air dodge that lasts quite long.

    being able to jump away for free means descending down on the opponent ( especially in a game that has no dash, slow turn animations, and a slow top speed for most characters) along with an ability to call in invincibility AND use some command movement option is just too many good variables for jumping. Worse case scenario is basically u can choose any combination of those options and u will at most (unless you are fighting Raiden) will either net opponent a really small AP combo or a hkd ( the majority of the cast getting little from a hkd due to delay getup+rolls).

    Obviously you are entitled to your opinion that the game feels better, but gameplay wise it doesnt help casuals or competitive play. Especially in large level that are used in casual play that allow people to jump away and run to the other of the screen indefinitely.

    Also as far as Kat is concerned, I think slight hitstun is fine for debris ( as to keep her combos except for debris lvl1) normal gravity fall, and hitting her at any time makes her lose her debris.

    Lastly I have to say I agree with bc1910, ultimately the annoyance of stage hazards ( which still can be avoided of course) isn’t nearly as important as the detriment double jump renewal brings to gameplay as a whole. While there is a casual market, they arent going to be the backbone of this game ( in fact its because of casual markets whimsical nature+ unfortunate shutdown of Superbot as to why the game is in its current condition fan base wise imo). This patch could do something huge for this game; the community came together and made some amazing suggestions character wise. Also with the general mechanic changes I stated and a ground speed boost ( we suggestion a 1.5x global top speed boost with zeus BD Dan getting a 1.6x boost instead to their top speed) the game can have a better balance between air and ground play, be faster, allow more creativity with resets and a better general balance to the characters.

    This game is very enjoyable to us all ( clearly) and these tweaks will definitely be something that can fix the gripes the competitive community AND casual community has ( i know since beta the casual community felt very odd with the lack of dash and general ground speed other than command dashes).

    May I ask you something Maj? I know you said you were all influenced in the office by SF and Marvel. What are the best representations of those influences for you in the game?
14. Bamsama December 29, 2013 at 9:44 am

    Also Maj ( sorry for the extended message haha) whats with double button presses favoring the lower button? I was searching for Option Selects in this game but there doesnt seem to be anything really for it ( even on jump ins unless im messing up some how). Is there anything you saw in the combat design that would allow for some technical stuff in this game? I just love things of that nature in fighters (SF and Smash clearly have a ton) I was just wondering if you could point me into a direction where i can find tech of that nature ( just anything you think may not have been as explored).
15. JushtFinisht December 29, 2013 at 10:08 am

    I can’t comment on the double jump renewal mechanic, but I know Kat’s debris is stronger than it should be due to her reduced blockstun, and I’ll explain why. In an earlier comment, I noted that both Kat and Emmett (unsurprising since they were both released at the same time as DLC) can punish far more moves than they should be able to because they have a different blockstun than the rest of the cast. Proof of this comes from testing, say, Dante’s U+Circle on a blocking Kat or Emmett CPU in Practice Mode. On other characters, all 3-5 hits (depending on the range) will connect and form a true block string, as can be seen in the Attack Display. However, on either Kat or Emmett, the U+Circle will never form a block string combo of 5 hits.

    So obviously, the implications of this are huge, especially for Kat. While Emmett having reduced blockstun is less of a problem (but still needs to be addressed), Kat’s reduced blockstun as well as her debris coming out fairly quickly means she can punish almost any move in the game with debris from block. Needless to say, Kat can convert almost any hit into a kill confirm or combo. Allowing her to effectively shave 1-2 frames of start-up from her moves from her reduced blockstun again makes her stronger than she needs to be. I’m fairly certain this should be one of the first things to change about Kat.

    I don’t know what Bam means with Option Selects, but if we could actually set some more specific things a Practice CPU bot could do (as well as fix a few Practice Mode bugs), it would definitely make it easier to find new tech, such as frame traps or resets. I doubt this will happen though.
16. Maj Post authorJanuary 6, 2014 at 3:11 pm

    Well, you guys make a good argument against double-jump renewal. I suppose Marvel gets away with it due to DHC’s and OTG’s, both of which allow air combos to transition consistently into limited ground combos. But obviously PASBR doesn’t have OTG’s, so very few characters can effectively punish high-fliers.

    Bamsama: The influence of SF and Marvel is prevalent all over the place in terms of move design and general combat in PASBR, but i’d say the biggest representation is the simple choice of introducing traditional fighting game combos to the platform brawler genre. Smash has always sort of shied away from allowing combos any breathing room to exist, but we tried to tackle the issue head-on instead.

    I don’t really know what you mean by “double button presses” or “the lower button” but i’m not a huge fan of option selects, so i’m kind of glad they aren’t dominant in PASBR. Anyway most option selects in SF come from overlapped inputs, which don’t really exist in PASBR because our input scheme basically eliminates the need for multi-button commands. We just use more buttons than Capcom fighting games do, so there’s no need for two-button throws or directional inputs that double as jump/block commands.

    JushtFinisht: I’m not really sure what might’ve caused Kat or Emmett to have reduced blockstun, but your test sounds pretty logical so i guess something went wrong. Whatever the problem turns out to be, it’s definitely worth fixing. What Practice Mode bugs are you referring to?
17. bc1910 January 8, 2014 at 4:29 am

    Maj, do you mind if I ask a few questions about Cole for a sec? I’d like to know about the thinking behind his Level 1 and its confirms. I can understand the thinking behind his Level 1 being so ridiculously fast and cheap (125 AP) since the game is balanced for FFA; it’ll probably only get one kill and you can hit him out of it before he throws the opponent. However, he has a LOT of confirms for Level 1 not to mention a ton of burst combos, which I think is really dangerous for a zoning character. You mentioned how you didn’t want Jak to gain more than ~50 AP per encounter due to his zoning nature, so how come Cole has such ridiculous rewards for his low (I want to say no) risk attacks? His Foward+Circle ice ball comes out fast, trades positively with almost everything and has virtually no recovery, to the point where he can sometimes block the counter-attack if it is parried. His Forward+Square, Triangle grind headbutt causes a launch that leaves the opponent very low to the ground, at the perfect height for a Level 1 confirm if you know how. The headbutt by itself is predictable obviously, but he can combo into it from connecting an ice ball even at max range! Considering it catches rolls and short hops, that’s not exactly hard to do. His Air Down Circle ice block is not only completely safe, but confirms his Level 1 and has a lasting hitbox to turn any attempted punish into a reset situation in Cole’s favour.

    Granted, Cole can’t do as much to a character higher than the max height of his Level 1 (he can still AP burst them though) but his Level 1 confirms give him reward similar to Raiden with none of Raiden’s risk. Besides Kat, Cole fits the bill for “no weaknesses” better than anyone else in my opinion.

    Some players think the ice ball was intended to extend combos, and not to be used for Level 1 confirms. Was much known about Cole’s Level 1 combo potential during development? Was it just deemed irrelevant because of the FFA-based balance? For a zoning character, Cole is far too scary up close with these confirms.
18. Maj Post authorJanuary 22, 2014 at 6:12 pm

    Some of Cole’s lvl1 confirms were known during development, and we didn’t see them as a huge problem for the reasons you mentioned. But the strength of his neutral game and his ability to confirm in so many different situations wasn’t fully known.

    In other words, i don’t think Cole is exceptional because of his confirms. Sure, he wouldn’t be nearly as strong if they were taken away. But lots of characters have lvl1 confirms who can’t set them up as well as Cole or have neutral game weaknesses that Cole doesn’t.

    What makes this issue difficult is that personally i like the way Cole plays. I think he’s a pretty unique fighting game character and he still has to work for his wins, which is always a good thing. I’d rather make other characters stronger instead of weakening Cole because nothing about his play style makes me think “Man, this character’s dumb.”

    But you’re probably right that a couple of his moves could use a little more recovery. The tricky thing is making them unsafe if predicted or overused – but not unsafe all the time. Because then they just become useless.

    Also the difference between Cole and Jak is that Cole’s still a very interactive and reactionary medium range character. He cares what the opponent is doing at all times. I don’t really think of Cole as a zoning character – he’s more of a mid-range footsies character to me. Or if he’s a zoning character, he’s an offensive zoning character whereas Jak is a defensive zoning character, which is a huge distinction. Cole can’t win by mashing one buttom from a safe area, then run away to another safe area.

    On the other hand, Jak’s projectile ranges are such that making them a little too strong/safe absolutely turns him into a stationary turret that can’t be punished. Basically, Jak was Emmett/Isaac except he was actually toned down whereas those two slipped through the cracks. Anyway Jak definitely needs some buffs, but he’s one of the hardest characters to balance for both FFA and 1v1. And i suppose Cole has the same problem as well.

    Sorry for the late response. Just been busy lately.
19. Bamsama January 23, 2014 at 10:40 am

    Melee and Brawl both actually have true combos(the latter far less); however they are more contextual than traditional fighters. I do like the combo system in this game as well as smash. However as Ive mentioned before, in this game air combos are ironically lacking sans a few characters not to mention the lengthy air dodges that avoid most of the cast air to air options. The reason why I asked it because I feel that Marvels air to air game is vacant from this game which one thing that always bothered me. Though I do like that theres is a healthy dose of aerials that HKD however few get enough out of that to deter someone from simply being air borne.

    At any case I can see why you like Cole’s design. It is a great design imo however he needs more recovery on a few key things so he can be contextually safe ( like having enough recovery so jumpins are a bit more viable if Cole isnt changing their spacing with his great mobility). things like that would be great to balance out his design. As he is now his neutral game is too great and his kill potential with the new loop that was found gives him 95 AP confirms from Short Hop Height.

    Something I was also very curious about was why there was a decision not only to disregard a dash option, but to give characters such a low top speed for running? i think the regular walk speed is fine but the top speed is abysmal. its something that has an huge emphasis not only in platform fighters ( see: Smash wavedash, dash, and run) but is in virtually every modern traditional fighter. Yes there are some characters with a command dash of sorts ( those characters tend to showcase a better system for the game as a whole and reason out the sheer size of the relatively large stages placed within the game), but overall most characters have to resort to some attack for movement which is okay in some cases but a combination of dashes and mobile attacks would have contributed to a more fluid feel of the characters. Why was this design choice made? ( I hope this is understood to be a question out of curiosity) And do you think that boosting the top speed for all the characters would better the game pace and fluidity. I personally do but I wanted to hear your stance on it; not just as a developer for this game but as a fighting game analyst.
20. bc1910 January 23, 2014 at 9:04 pm

    I much prefer the combo system in this game and I agree that besides the hilariously broken/balanced? Smash 64, combos are given very little breathing room in Smash games. I really love how the different hit reactions work together to create interesting combos and kill confirms, and I find the combos are always satisfying to perform.

    I’m completely on board with buffing other characters rather than just whacking the top tiers with the nerf bat until everyone is mid tier, but a few characters such as Cole could use a little toning down. I guess he is more of a mid range character than a zoner, which would put him in the same kind of class as Drake (who I actually think is at a pretty good level in terms of what we might aim for with general balance).

    I think you’re right that Cole is reactionary, and I accept he does require the use of combos from his projectiles to build good meter or get kill confirms, but I’m not sure I agree that he works particularly hard for his wins considering how safe his main pokes are. I can definitely accept he requires decent reactions, but if a player can achieve that then his risk/reward ratio gets a little out of kilter and I don’t think particularly good reactions are really necessary.

    Perhaps if the grind headbutt confirm were to go, and Forward Circle/Down Circle were toned down a bit in terms of recovery, Cole would be in a good place. It would also be nice if the Up Circle Ice Jump ice blocks (air and ground) didn’t come out whilst he was being hit but I accept this is mostly a netcode issue. Maybe some more startup on Ice Jump would help though.
21. Bamsama January 24, 2014 at 4:01 pm

    oh and awhile back when i was talking about global landing lag being 2 frames I meant if you didnt use an attack there are 2 frames in which u cant block. Same goes for down teching, you would have 5 frames upon landing. if you do an aerial before you down tech then u would suffer the greater amount of landing lag ( frames in which you cant block). I didnt mean you necessarily change up air dodges. Landing lag would basically make being airborne more costly and give people a proper punish for ppl jumping recklessly, while down tech penalty would allow reset to be more viable as there wouldnt be a brainless option to negate any tech at that point.
22. Maj Post authorJanuary 25, 2014 at 6:08 pm

    Bamsama: Most characters run about as fast as they can in PASBR without looking cartoony. (Movement speed in Smash does look cartoony-fast, which is totally fine for Nintendo characters but not exactly something you can do with Radec, Drake, or Nariko.) It’s true there’s no dash in PASBR, but it didn’t seem necessary since most characters have at least one dash-like attack and everyone has universal dodge roll.

    Anyway those core navigation decisions were made before i was hired, but i think characters do have enough movement options. Playing 1v1’s on huge levels like Dreamscape is the only time i used to miss having a dash, but then again those were designed primarily as 4-player maps.

    To answer your question, unfortunately there’s no way to boost the top running speed of characters without either redoing all navigation animations (which is out of the question) or making everyone have slippery feet, like when you pick up Boots of Hermes (which is also out of the question).

    bc1910: Increasing Cole’s F+Circle and D+Circle recoveries slightly seems like a reasonable enough nerf. What’s the grind headbutt confirm and why does it need to go?

    Bamsama: I know what you meant, but the only way to implement your suggestion is to create a duplicate air dodge state or to do some janky stuff with variables. Either way it’s slightly complicated.

    By the way, what did you mean when you said there’s a huge disparity to air dodges and rolls among the cast? Air dodges are pretty much standardized as far as i remember, and ground rolls are pretty close to average for everyone except a few giant characters like Big Daddy. Which air dodges and rolls need to be adjusted in your opinion?
23. bc1910 January 26, 2014 at 5:40 am

    Cole’s Forward Square -> Triangle shoulder tackle can be easily comboed into a kill confirm if it hits a grounded opponent, or an opponent very close to the ground, because the hitstun makes the opponent fall back down so far. Wouldn’t be much of an issue if not for the fact it allows him to combo into a Level 1 confirm from ground F+Circle no matter where it connects, even at max range. Getting a kill confirm from such a safe projectile no matter the range is a bit much in my opinion.

    Oh, by the way, were you aware that Isaac has a gun loop? If you cancel neutral plasma cutter into walking plasma cutter immediately, there’s a window after the fourth shot where you can skip the reload animation and do whatever you want, including neutral plasma cutter.
24. Maj Post authorJanuary 26, 2014 at 11:02 pm

    Wouldn’t adding 3-5 frames of recovery to F+Circle prevent that though? Why nerf both?

    And yeah, Isaac’s gun loop was brought up a while back. Obviously it should be removed like Drake’s old gun loop was. Are you sure Isaac’s loop is only possible after the fourth F+Square shot? Or is there another way to do it?

    Also just to give you guys a head-up, i’m gonna be pretty busy for about a month or two starting tomorrow – so depending on how things work out, i might not be able to respond much anymore. If i disappear for a while, please don’t take it personally. This seven-page discussion has been a lot of fun!
25. Bamsama January 27, 2014 at 12:53 pm

    Well Maj I was thinking you can utilize the same method used for allowing there 12 frames of landing at which you cant do a super. You can do the same thing for block; air dodge or not after u land allowing the block button to be disabled until frame 2 ( or frame 5 for downtech) seems as it could be done with the same method as the super landing penalty you all created.

    As far as runs go, there are humanoid runs in brawl that look perfectly fine ( Snake, Zero Suit) and even the game itself you have runs that wouldve been perfect ( Raidens run speed in lvl3 comes to mind). Ultimately as much as theyre dash like moves that are somewhat useable, theyre many that simply are not effective as a true mobility option ( Sir Dans shield dash). In fact the mobility of these dash like moves are negated by the loss of options due to it being an actual attack. Dashing allows a decent amount of options out of it and dash tech (ex: wave dashing) can be found and add more depth to the characters as a whole.

    For example Cole while seemingly at his best a reactionary character his safety is only one of his strong suits. the fact that he has grinding and grind cancels ( pressing circle after grinds to use it as a dash) he is able to dictate the spacing and pace of the match with ease. Its what makes him so enjoyable as a character; strong pokes and mobility he can utilize to weave in and out. Even Dante with his command dashes coupled with his dash like attacks via his gun attacks, he is able to move around and shift spacing in a spectacular fashion. Obviously Kat with her tri dash and wave dashing gives the character Marvel esque mobility that everyone enjoys and adds exponential depth to the character ( especially when used with her mobile attacks. Even heihachi’s depth of a character dramatically increases when someone is competent with his command dash movement. You see it in virtually every modern fighter today. Obviously this wasnt your design decision, but coming from FGC background don’t you feel dashes have improved gameplay and overall fluidity of fighters? especially in a game that is a platform fighter it puzzle why the majority of the cast movement is lacking. This is something that Ive heard from casuals and competitive players of this game alike. I mean the way I see it the movement speed is worse than SF2 with projectiles that could be somewhat sufficient in a VS game. Rolling seems to be the best mobile option for most character which in itself is quite punishable and not really as useful or as aesthetically pleasing as a dash.

    Oh for the air dodge and the rolls I do believe the air dodges are fairly standardized; however on the roll side theres ridiculously long rolls like Sir Dan and horrific rolls like Big Daddy. We asked for all those to be fairly standard in the event that we had missed any. Variance is good imo but for Big Dadyy to have half a roll is quite odd.

    Anyways thanks again for having this discussion with us. Though I know you are no longer working on this project you have spoken to us rather candidly and for that we thank you. I did want to ask if you had any contact with the team working on the final patch. Being a Southern Californian native I would love to help properly balance the game given our conversations and ones Ive had with the top players in the community (like bc1910). Let me know if you do so we can get this game offline and make some head way with our community. Also I let you know whenever we are having an event so you can swing on by. Thanks again Maj.
26. Maj Post authorFebruary 3, 2014 at 9:44 pm

    If we were gonna make a sequel, i’m sure dashing would make it in there like all fighting games nowadays. I like dashing, but i just didn’t think it was essential enough to argue for it late in development.

    (Although i did manage to convince our lead animator to put Hermes Dash in the game. Turning that animation into a slower dash is probably a better solution than speeding up existing run anims.)

    What would be the input for it anyway? I don’t think double tapping directions feels good on a pad stick.

    Also do you guys get together to play anywhere in SoCal? Is there still any interest for PASBR during Smash Sundays at Super Arcade by any chance?

    By the way, i remember you guys saying a while ago that Sly Cooper doesn’t have landing lag after air attacks. Are you sure that’s true? He seems to have the same delay as everyone else.
27. bc1910 February 4, 2014 at 9:34 am

    The input for dashing should be tap to dash imo. Feels great in Smash Bros. Don’t know if you’re able to code that with dualshocks and vitas but that would be my first choice.

    Sly does have landing lag. The person who tested it tested using Fat Princess, who suffers her own unique landing lag with minions. Don’t ask me how that mistake was made, I really don’t know, she’s the only character with unique minion lag so I don’t know why Sly was picked on to have no landing lag when by the same logic every other character in the cast would have no landing lag…
28. Maj Post authorFebruary 4, 2014 at 11:55 pm

    Cool, good to know. One less thing to feel bad about, haha.

    As far as the dashing input, i agree that it feels pretty good in Smash, but doing things that way requires a different approach to navigation animations. Basically everyone’s run animation has to blend out of dash startup, which requires planning in advance (or a lot of rework). If that was implemented in PASBR now, a great deal of nuanced animation work would get lost in the process and the end result wouldn’t look nearly as polished.

    Going back to Cole, here’s a random question. Let’s say most of his lvl1 confirms got taken away. Probably the easiest way to do that is lowering his lvl1 super hitbox all the way down to his feet where the lightning ring appears. Then basically he’d only have D+Square into lvl1 super which isn’t as easy or safe to land as his good pokes.

    So he’d turn into a lvl2 confirm character, which actually wouldn’t change his play style much because he has pretty much the same confirms into lvl2 super. To compensate for his lvl1 super becoming way worse, maybe you could give it a couple extra frames of startup invincibility to make it slightly more effective in read situations. (And let’s say this was part of an attempt to take away easy lvl1 confirms from the top six characters minus Kratos.)

    How would that work out? Would it still be necessary to add more recovery to F+Circle and D+Circle? Because the problem with F+Circle is there’s no real way to add recovery to the air version without making him float after he throws the ice ball – completely changing the way that move feels. At least air D+Circle is already floaty, so making it a little floatier wouldn’t be a huge change. Or do those moves simply make him too unfun to fight against?
29. bc1910 February 5, 2014 at 7:12 am

    Startup invincibility on Level 1 supers is already pretty bugged online, because you can hit people out of supers only to have them teleport back into the super animation, killing you in the process. Or you can grab them, and suddenly get supered out of your grab. I’d be against making startup invincibility better for any super, in fact if possible I’d remove it completely (though I know it works perfectly in offline play so that might not be necessary).

    Lowering the hitbox of his Level 1 is another popular balance idea and I think it’s a great change. I don’t know if it would need to be lowered all the way to the ground, but a significant reduction would be very helpful.

    I’m actually fine with Air F+Circle the way it is, Cole stone falls very quickly and is easily punished if he just throws that out with no thought. It’s the ground version that’s way too safe due to the way it controls such a massive space in front of him, ploughing through most characters’ short hop game. If he wants to control the same space with the air version he has to short hop and wait until he’s almost touching the ground again, which is much slower and extremely easy to avoid. The air version tends not to start kill confirms unless the Cole player can react to the hit immediately; what’s more likely is that they’ll follow up with Tether -> Air D+Circle which will usually put the opponent too high to be killed. So leaving the air version alone and adding a little more recovery to the ground version should be fine.
30. bc1910 February 5, 2014 at 7:18 am

    Apologies, hit submit too early. As for Air D+Circle, I think adding frames where Cole can’t input anything to the falling animation would be more effective than making the attack floatier since most characters prefer landing/grab punishes to aerial hits. If his Level 1 was badly nerfed then Air D+Circle and F+Circle would probably need less imposing nerfs, but I think it’s still worth making those moves a bit more cerebral in how they’re used.
31. Maj Post authorFebruary 5, 2014 at 4:33 pm

    Startup invincibility isn’t the cause of that online phenomenon. It’s more of a netcode issue, and it goes pretty deep.

    But i think lvl1 super invincibility could use a slight overhaul anyway. Currently every lvl1 super has ~5 frames of startup invincibility, then they become vulnerable until their hitboxes become active, at which point they stay invincible as long as their hitboxes remain active. Of course there are exceptions, but that’s the general convention.

    Personally i think every physical lvl1 super should have roughly 8 frames of startup invincibility, then remain vulnerable the whole rest of the way through. And i think every projectile lvl1 super (Drake, Emmett’s basic and rocket, Isaac, Nariko, Radec, Ratchet, Sly) should have 5 frames of startup invincibility. The weird inbetween ones (Dante, Emmett’s shotgun, Sir Daniel, Zeus) can have 6-7 frames.

    Because right now it doesn’t take much skill to get a triple-kill with Toro’s lvl1 super. You just sneak up on a combat bubble and as long as you can make it to the dash part of your lvl1 super, you’re pretty much unstoppable. I think lvl1 supers are too inexpensive for that to happen as often as it does. And sacrificing the active period invincibility doesn’t affect 1v1 matches as much because very few people gamble on using them like that during the neutral game, plus there are fewer stray attacks on screen to keep track of.

    As for Cole’s lvl1 super hitbox height, what’s the point of lowering it if he can still confirm from F+Square -> Triangle? Shouldn’t it be lowered as much as it has to be until it misses the low point of that reaction?
32. Maj Post authorFebruary 5, 2014 at 5:40 pm

    By the way, have you guys found any way out of online tick throw setups? (When a player lands an attack to cause a ground reaction, then sets up a throw to overlap the opponent’s first recovery frame.)

    I know you can’t really jump out like you can offline, but what happens if you try to counter-throw? Does the online throw clash system help at all? Or what happens if you use a super fast eject attack like Sackboy’s D+Square or Sweet Tooth’s F+Triangle?
33. bc1910 February 5, 2014 at 7:18 pm

    Yeah, I was thinking it should be lowered to below the F+Square -> Triangle confirm height, I just didn’t think that would require lowering it to the floor. Sorry if that was unclear. Also thanks a lot for the info about Level 1 super invincibility, that explains SO much.

    You can super out of online tick throw setups with any level super due to the 5 frames of startup invincibility on Level 1s and general priority of Level 2s and 3s. Super fast ejects and other throws tend not to allow you to escape them unless the conditions are really laggy, and if they’re that laggy you probably shouldn’t be trying to play with that person anyway.

    Sackboy can use his U+Circle jump pad to escape them, but it’s pretty glitchy (known as the grab escape glitch) and is actually something most players want to remove from the game cause it just looks awful. Sackboy just kind of repeatedly bounces around the opponent, and the bouncepad usually gets stuck to them… it’s hard to describe but it looks terrible. Occurs offline too. It’s also kind of annoying to not be able to grab a character with such a powerful Level 3.

    Fat Princess can use minions on that first recovery frame. Depending on the throw her D+Circle bomb minion can help her escape follow-ups because takes so long to blow up. Against Raiden for example the bomb blows up pretty much just as his Down Throw finishes and will prevent him from comboing her, since the throw’s armoured period has ended. Overall comboing into grabs through online tick throw setups wouldn’t be too bad if not for the characters who can get Level 1 confirms from a throw. Those characters can end up with pseudo kill confirms from almost any stagger and even pseudo touch of death combos in the case of Raiden, Isaac and Fat Princess. Though Fat Princess’ throw confirm is so hard to do it barely matters.

    Oh by the way, is there any particular reason why a timer option wasn’t added for Stock mode?
34. Maj Post authorFebruary 6, 2014 at 12:27 pm

    Thanks for the info about throws. All of that makes perfect sense, even the Sackboy bouncepad glitch – due to the way that reaction was set up. I don’t know if it’s possible to get rid of it entirely, but part of the problem is that interrupting Sackboy during U+Circle startup doesn’t destroy the bouncepad. His D+Circle shockpad used to have the same issue. Maybe changing that will lessen how frequently the grab escape glitch occurs.

    Okay so Raiden’s throw lvl1 confirm would be removed by not letting him turn around during lvl1 super and Isaac’s throw lvl1 confirm would be removed by changing his F+Triangle to eject roll. What would you do about Fat Princess’ throw lvl1 confirm (and her endless lvl1 confirms in general)? What if she couldn’t active lvl1 super for 0.5 seconds after calling an assist?

    Also going back to Bamsama’s suggestion of removing the ability to cancel air tech with double jump – would that solve anything if everyone can just double-jump after the tech animation is over? Because air tech lasts for ~16 frames, stays invincible the whole way through, and immediately transitions to air idle state which obviously allows you to double jump.

    I mean i could see the benefit of not allowing it for down tech because the character will often land before it’s over, but that doesn’t happen with forward tech or neutral tech. Also when you guys say neutral tech, are you referring to backward tech (no input) or forward tech (holding forward)?

    And as for why a timer option wasn’t added to Stock mode, i’m not really sure. Maybe it was just one of those features that got lost in the shuffle before a deadline. I know we were kicking around the idea of expanding 1v1 support in future patches, adding Ranked Online 1v1 and so on. Maybe whoever was designing those systems assumed it would be added in a patch if enough players requested it.

    But adding that kind of stuff is actually a lot harder than it seems, especially now without the SuperBot team intact. For example a lot of your combat related suggestions are things i could implement by myself (with access to the development tools). But adding an extra game mode requires a UI artist, a UI engineer/programmer, a network programmer, and probably one other person i’m forgetting. It’s just much harder to assemble that group, especially considering there’s only a handful of people in the world who know how our custom UI system works.
35. Maj Post authorFebruary 6, 2014 at 12:45 pm

    On second thought, i take back what i said about changing lvl1 super invincibility – 5 frames vs 8 frames might be oversimplifying things a bit. Projectile lvl1 supers would become way better than physical lvl1 supers, since their hitboxes can’t be nullified after they’ve been created. Without some active invincibility, Toro’s lvl1 super would be completely outclassed by Sly’s lvl1 super.

    I was thinking it would be fine because Kratos’ lvl1 super works great despite having barely any invincibility after activation (only 2 frames when he actually swings the sword). But the range of his swipe and the fact that the sword itself can’t be hit makes it just as much of a pseudo “projectile” attack as Zeus’ lvl1 super – except with the added advantage of moving forward.

    So i think the current system is more or less okay, especially since everyone’s used to it. If i could go back and redo it all from scratch, i might change a few things to put more of an emphasis on startup invincibility and less emphasis on active invincibility, but i wouldn’t change as much as i originally thought.
36. bc1910 February 6, 2014 at 3:32 pm

    Isaac actually has a ton of Level 1 confirms from throw. I went hunting and found several touch of death combos on every (legal) stage; midscreen, corner, false wall, you name it. The corner confirms are also the most practical since his stagger loop (F+Triangle, Air D+Triangle) pushes you so far back. So what I’m trying to say is that none of Isaac’s touch of death combos are actually situational despite requiring corners sometimes. To get rid of the Level 1 confirms F+Triangle and U+Triangle should have their hitstun slightly reduced and the F+Circle ripper blade should either bounce off walls or disappear when it hits a wall. The F+Triangle hitstun reduction is only necessary for the reaction suffered by aerial opponents, that weird floaty-hop thing. I think the way the opponent falls is fine, the animation should just be playrated by a certain percentage to make the hitstun lower as you mentioned when discussing Kat’s debris. I think force gun eject roll is a nice “quick fix” and I know I’ve suggested it myself but it’s a last resort for me since there’s a chance it’ll kill the character, neutering a lot of combos and making him feel rather week.

    I think a time penalty to prevent Fat Princess from supering straight after summons is a great idea. Something similar could maybe be implemented for Kat’s debris to kill two birds with one stone. I don’t think 0.5 seconds will be long enough though since as it is she has time to summon a F+Circle knight, tbag, and then use Level 1 haha. Some people suggested increasing the F+Circle startup time so it no longer combos from D+Square, which would remove most of her confirms including the deadly Air Neutral Triangle, D+Square, F+Circle, Level 1 confirm. The throw confirm uses a fireball minion to confirm and I’m not too sure how to get rid of it. Lowering the vertical hitbox of her Level 1 or maybe giving her about 18 frames of landing lag before she can super would remove the Air Neutral Square into fireball variant.

    I don’t think having to wait for the tech to finish before you can double jump would really change anything to be honest. You can still just airdodge, then double jump to change your landing position and remain safe purely because you stayed in the air, not through clever positioning or anything. Raiden would still be the only character who forces you to use positioning, jumping and airdodging carefully. Oh and for neutral tech, we mean backward tech/no input.

    To be completely honest, in any game mode Toro’s Level 1 is completely outclassed by Fat Princess’ Level 1 already, let alone Sly’s. I don’t think different invincibility values would really change that. The only thing it has going for it is the ability to slide off platforms but I’d much rather have some reliable confirms besides air headbutt which is too telegraphed and badly ranged to be overly useful. Though I understand why it was done, it’s a shame Toro had to lose that divekick loop to Level 1 confirm. The invincibility system seems fine as it is, the only problems arise when the netcode causes supers to activate twice and whatnot.
37. Maj Post authorFebruary 6, 2014 at 6:21 pm

    Hmm, i’m not sure what should be done about Isaac. He has a bunch of amazing tools with obnoxiously short recovery. The result is a lot of cool combos, but far too many kill confirms and far too much safe pressure. There’s no way any of the twenty characters on disc would’ve gotten away with recovery as quick as Isaac’s U+Square, F+Triangle, U+Triangle, or F+Circle. But the DLC characters just got a lot less playtesting, so blatantly overpowered stuff like that made it through.

    I remember you said Fat Princess’ j.Square should have reduced speed and range. Should she still be able to combo j.Square after her up throw? Also you said her fireball minion hitbox should be reduced. Do you mean the projectile hitbox or the explosion hitbox?

    And regarding the jump land stuff, how does this sound as an alternative to Bamsama’s requests #1-3? Everyone has 2-3 frames of landing lag when landing from air idle. Landing during down tech or down tech -> air dodge counts as landing during an attack. You can’t double jump out of down tech and getting hit in the air doesn’t renew double jump. Air dodge is standardized to have 27 invincible frames followed by 9 vulnerable frames in the air. (Currently it’s closer to ~29 invincible frames and ~7 vulnerable frames, with a few weird exceptions that probably shouldn’t exist.)
38. bc1910 February 6, 2014 at 9:49 pm

    Isaac’s very cool and he feels great to play as but yeah he has some really overpowered tools. I think he’s very tough to balance without killing him, but some hitstun reductions would at least take out the majority of his nonsense from grabs. Going back to what you said about Jak’s risk of being a “stationary turret that can’t be punished”, I’d say that that applies more to Emmett/Ratchet than Emmett/Isaac. I think Isaac COULD play like that but his long range isn’t amazing. Also his combo potential is so good he doesn’t really need to zone. Ratchet on the other hand really can be obnoxiously safe at long, mid and even close range due to Air U+Square, Air D+Triangle and tesla spikes.

    I’m fine with the j.Square combo after up throw. Her kill confirms and bursts are done by comboing up throw into U+Square, then using a fireball minion, then using j.Square to knock the opponent into the fireball, then Level 1 to kill OR U+Square again into whatever to burst. I think her burst from throw is perfectly fine but the kill confirm should go, though it’s one of the hardest confirms in the game so it’s not the end of the world if it stays. For the fireball I think the projectile hitbox should be smaller, though if both were to be smaller that’d be cool too. Some other suggested nerfs for Fat Princess are her summons disappearing when she’s ejected, summons disappearing when she’s hit at all, and not allowing Fat Princess to dodge while summons are active.

    Your jump land suggestions sound perfect. I’d be very happy if all of that was implemented. I feel like submitting those suggestions to SSM, haha.
39. Maj Post authorFebruary 7, 2014 at 1:32 pm

    Reducing hitstun on Isaac’s F+Triangle and U+Triangle shouldn’t be difficult because i’m pretty sure those are extended hitstuns anyway. But that would probably break his F+Circle -> F+Triangle and U+Triangle -> U+Circle combos. Personally i don’t mind the second one but i think the first one should definitely be removed.

    And making his F+Circle bounce off walls might not be possible. I have no idea how that projectile was set up, but i’m sure it was complicated.

    This might be a dumb question, but why is Nariko’s j.D+Triangle bug such a big deal? She can’t really use it in combos anyway, right? What exact role does it currently play in Nariko’s (offline) gameplan?

    Btw out of curiosity, are there any local people playing PASBR offline where you live? Also which character(s) do you main?
40. bc1910 February 7, 2014 at 4:39 pm

    The second one probably wouldn’t go, you can cancel U+Triangle into U+Circle almost immediately, it really doesn’t need all that extra hitstun. Also if F+Circle can’t bounce off walls then it should just disappear imo, although if the F+Triangle, Air D+Triangle loop was removed it might not be such a big deal to have the down throw corner confirm.

    It’s a big deal because it allows the opponent to do invisible AND invincible attacks and supers that Nariko can’t do anything about. Offline it plays a big part in her aerial reset game, whereas online she’s limited to just AP bursting. And I mean even if it doesn’t have tons of uses offline, just the fact you know they’re in a normal hard knockdown is a lot better than guessing at their position.

    I live in the UK, there are quite a few players here (more than one would think, probably) but we’re rather spread out. We had talked about getting an offline scene going in somewhere like Manchester though, maybe something will happen in the summer. I’m a Raiden main, always have been and probably always will be. I sub Nariko and (recently) Toro. I used to play Isaac but now I only use him if people want me to help them learn the matchup.
41. Maj Post authorFebruary 7, 2014 at 9:36 pm

    Oh i understand why it’s bad when Nariko’s j.D+Triangle glitches out. I’m just wondering what makes Nariko players still use it. What is that move’s main function in her gameplan?

    For example if the current intended behavior can’t be fixed to work online, what would you say to just making it flatten all the time? It’s not like she has a lot of ways to combo it against grounded opponents, so i’m assuming it’s mostly used against airborne opponents.

    Good luck getting everyone together in the summer! If you guys happen to organize a tournament and manage to get it streamed, let me know so i can watch it.
42. bc1910 February 8, 2014 at 8:49 am

    It’s actually very useful to combo against grounded opponents. She can use it to catch rolls, screw up attempted landing punishes (due to its great range) and sometimes punish grab attempts though Air U+Square is better for that. Its main function is definitely being a safe combo starter, so I wouldn’t want it to flatten all the time. It’s safe because you can cancel it into Air U+Triangle afterward even at short hop height.

    Outside that it’s very useful to be able to spike your opponents back to the ground. Since her U+Triangle is no longer jump cancellable on whiff her anti air isn’t as good as it used to be, and having a ranged air-air spike is a real godsend; see Fat Princess. Not to mention it’s a 20 AP contribution for a character that might only need 750 AP to win the match, which is pretty significant.

    Thanks, I’ll let you know if anything happens.
43. Bamsama February 9, 2014 at 10:55 pm

    yeah as bc has already stated Maj, Nariko’s j.D+triangle is actually one of her best combo starters. She has strings such as short hop j.D+triangle > j.D+Square>U+Triangle> j.U+Triangle> j. Circle> j.F+Square for a solid AP Burst combo. Its a great whiff punishing tools and its angle of attack makes it very favorable vs grounded opponents. Even at certain heights where she cant combo as reliably (delay j.D+Square or delay j.U+Triangle are her best options to start a combo from a ~full hop j.D+Triangle) because of the buttdrop histun of the move she can still land in a position in which she can start up some kind of block pressure ( although to be fair the AP she gets on block vs what she needs to actually win a match in not enough, which is why we requested a combo grab for her). So Nariko would suffer greatly from having that move flatten all the time.
44. Maj Post authorFebruary 10, 2014 at 1:20 am

    Wouldn’t you get the same block pressure off a knockdown? Isn’t that more in line with Nariko’s play style anyway?

    Let’s say her ground D+Triangle always lets you combo into neutral Square (and nothing else). And let’s say she has a combo starter throw.

    That means every time you land j.D+Triangle, you get a pretty good wakeup mixup – either throw into full combo or D+Triangle into Key Pose mixups. Isn’t that enough? And more fun anyway?

    Plus i don’t think it makes sense to predict how much AP she’ll need win a match. For example, what if half the lvl1 confirms in the game get removed? Let’s say Kat can’t use lvl1 supers for half a second after she throws debris; Fat Princess can’t use lvl1 supers while a servant is on screen; Raiden can’t turn around during lvl1 super; Isaac has more recovery or less hitstun on F+Triangle, U+Triangle, and F+Circle; Cole’s lvl1 hitbox is lowered so most of his juggle confirms stop working; and even Dante’s lvl1 super has more startup so it doesn’t connect after neutal Square x3 empty cancel.

    I feel like if every character only has one or two practical lvl1 kill confirms like Sweet Tooth’s j.Square, it’ll be a lot easier to gameplan around that. Plus it’ll give players more of an incentive to build up to lvl2 supers, which can have many versatile confirms given their AP cost.

    It takes at least three touches to kill someone with a lvl2 super: two AP burst combos and a kill confirm. That’s a lot of chances to overcome bad luck and determine the better player.

    And i mean it’s pretty easy to give Nariko a lvl2 confirm. Just make her cannon cause a full launch on startup (and of course slow it down because right now it hits crazy fast).

    Currently i think the biggest widespread balance problem is that certain characters can convert too many different situations into lvl1 confirms, making it impossible to gameplan around them. That’s the number one thing that jumps out at me when i look at Kat, Isaac, Raiden, Cole, and Fat Princess. If you take that away, everything about how much AP is needed to win a match will change dramatically.
45. bc1910 February 10, 2014 at 6:06 am

    Wakeup mixups are limited (for characters who don’t have a mine) by the plethora of options neutral getup offers, on top of rolls and delayed getup. Wakeup mixups can be fun but almost every character who lacks a mine commits hard to a single offensive option. Fat Princess, a character once feared for her oki, gets most of her kills from pressure and Air Neutral Triangle landing traps now. This is since a few of us realised her oki really isn’t all that scary, sure it looks great with her minions and whatnot but she commits just as hard to one option as almost everyone else. Wakeup mixups are important, don’t get me wrong, but I would never want to trade a combo starter for a knockdown.

    Maybe not for FFA, but it’s perfectly reasonable to predict how much AP a character will need to win a 1v1 match and even 2v2 depending on their partner. Every character has their most effective competitive gameplan and since supers are the only way to kill, that gameplan will cost a certain amount of AP. If you’re talking about predicting how much AP they will need post-patch then that’s a different story.

    I think converting too many different situations into Level 1 confirms is a great way to describe the top tiers besides Kratos and Sly, and if we can fix that then the balance should improve.

    For Kat the problem extends past that, though. Let’s say debris didn’t confirm her Level 1 due to a half second delay. She would be Level 2 and 3 reliant but due to her lightning fast, practically NO risk pokes in Neutral Triangle, Air Forward Square, Debris and others, she would still be the best character in the game. It’s like the reason why Sly is top tier despite being relatively inefficient – who cares if he has relatively low reward for his hits when he never, ever puts himself at risk? Kat has the same issue, but Neutral Triangle, Air Forward Square and Debris are pretty much broken since she gets an AP burst without any real risk of punishment. She’d probably be legal, barely, because of her high AP win requirement, but I don’t think banning Kat would be out of the question if the only thing she lost was debris confirms due to her insanely good pokes.

    Neutral Triangle is the thing that really breaks her to be honest, it leaves her in the air and recovers SO quickly, to the point where it’s pretty much safe on whiff. Air Forward Square at least has a tiny window of landing lag on whiff and Debris can be hard to follow up with a full AP burst combo, but Neutral Triangle just has no weaknesses. Kat’s mobility is fun as hell and I love her design, but she needs some facet of risk/reward added to her pokes. Because I love her mobility so much I’d actually like it if her reward was hit instead of her risk, but that’s just me. It’ll need to be hit harder than just losing debris confirms though since AP bursting with complete safety until Level 2, confirming it and repeating is still too good. Changing Neutral Triangle’s hit reaction to a unique lift that pushes them out of Kat’s follow up range would be good in my opinion.

    Parappa has a similar issue with risk-less offence in Up Square and Air Forward Square, but his pokes can’t be spammed as fast as Kat’s nor are they AS safe on whiff. Parappa was definitely a sleeper character competitively though and you often see him right below Ratchet at the top of high tier now.
46. Maj Post authorFebruary 10, 2014 at 8:45 am

    Yeah, i meant predicting AP quotas after the patch. Nariko can’t catch wakeup rolls on reaction with D+Triangle? Seems like it should be doable if you just stand over their body.

    And i agree that some characters are just too safe. That’s how Kratos is top tier without any dominant lvl1 confirms, but increasing his poke recoveries like you said should help. Giving Kat more recovery on neutral Triangle is pretty easy too.

    Sly is a little more complicated. He needs to be safer than average since he can’t block, but his neutral Circle is out of control. Personally i think it should only reflect projectiles while he’s getting in the barrel because it’s too detrimental to a couple of characters, like Radec. Also he should have a lot more recovery if the explosion whiffs.

    And i think he needs to lose a couple of his lvl1 confirms, namely counter and mine. Neutral Circle just needs slightly more recovery to not confirm into lvl1 super and D+Circle just needs to launch a little higher.
47. Maj Post authorFebruary 10, 2014 at 9:30 am

    While we’re on the subject, which moves do you guys consider to be overly (problematically) safe, factoring in their reward? For example, Sly’s F+Triangle is very safe, but i don’t consider it a problem because it’s practically impossible to combo after it.

    Please give me a complete list, not just a top 5 or top 10. Thanks!
48. Bamsama February 10, 2014 at 10:25 am

    Maj I definitely agree with you; the major disparity in the game is the amount of lvl1 confirms for other characters. As you have already stated; lvl1 confirms limit the required reading needed for a kill, which in turn makes it less likely for the better player to win. I think its a better design for the game as a whole because a) lv1s will require more a read based type of style (Id see them utilized like EX moves in a way for their invincibility and what not) while lvl2s will have variants to support majority of the cast.

    I do agree with bc, that Kat needs to altered in more ways to be effectively balanced. I do believe pretty much all her issues would be with the Patch Wishlist Notes we made for SMS.

    http://community.us.playstation.com/t5/PlayStation-All-Stars-Battle/Podcasts-and-Notes-For-Tank-and-Co/td-p/41606131

    U+Circle to eject and give 20AP
    – Neutral Square should have increased startup frames ( 2 frames behind dante’s jab). 3rd hit of jab string (n111) should be -12 on block.
    – u1 should have -10 on block
    – j. F+Square as is still capable of comboing into neutral square, neutral Triangle, neutral circle
    – n2 changed to – 15 on block and whiff, cancels into current recovery on hit
    – d+traingle increase size hurtbox while sliding. d+triangle>Square increase recovery frames ( enough to lose the lvl1 confirm)
    – Neutral Circle: increase debris summon time. if done while air borne remove all actions until landing including jumping and air dodging ( stone falling). debris range decrease to 4 training squares length. Drop debris when hit by 20+ AP move. *add hitbox aura around debris
    – give Kat the inability to debris> lvl1 super but keep all her other combos intact
    – D+Circle grounded recovery -14 on block or whiff. cancelable on hit.
    – remove ability to air dodge while in air dash. Still retains the ability to airdodge before and after air dash. (* if possible code neutral jump to not be considered an air dash, allowing air dodging). allow air dash to still cancel into the ground via block. Keep her “waveland”; in which she dashes diagonally into the ground and slides across the ground in her neutral position. ( done by diagonally air dashing toward the ground at a low height and pressing a.n2 right as you are about to land).
    – remove blocking on wall cling. reduce duration of wall cling to 2 seconds.
    – Remove explosion from Lvl 2 Stalagmite Collisions
    – Fix invisible debris
    – Fix debris floating around the stage
    – Fix issue with only being able to summon debris and not throw it
    – fix visual glitch when she attacks the opposing way than how she is actually attacking on screen
    – Increase her entire hurtbox in the majority of her moveset including her lvl1, crouch and down triangle dash. standardize her crumple state so she doesnt fall faster than the rest of the cast
    – Remove that kat can slide after respawning and retain her invulnerability

    – Dusty (her cat) blocks sniper bullets and other hit scan moves and cause certain combos to drop, please remove

    I am positive with these changes she will still a strong character, but will be far more balanced. Her anti air neutral triangle, the ease of Summoning/maintaining debris, her ability to air dodge with attacking (via Debris), Debris>lvl1 confirm, and her jab speed and safety ( combined with the lower block stun that she and emmett had) are really the major points that made her game breaking ( glitches aside). I believe the tweaks posted up above balance those major issues and make things like D+ Circle a little less safe (given its range). Then she will keep her comboability and retain her mobility; however she will be open to punishment so throwing out hitboxes and airdodging with debris for a safe approach will no longer exist. She’d also have more an issue vs jump ins given these balance changes and keeping her debris less will be more viable a strategy.

    I understand the plight with Sly as idea of him not having block really pigeonholed his design. He literaly has to be safe otherwise he gets comboed to death ( something the netcode itself showcased with these Sly infinites by simply jabbing sly over and over). I do believe certain facets of his game could be tweaked though in terms of his moveset. I do believe those changes you stated would go alone way to making the character more solid. Again its really hard to balance the character because if you make a move outright punishable then he gets stuck in horrific situations but at the same time its needed as you cant hope to punish Sly’s secondary option to win every time. At this point a lot of the punishments possible on Sly equate punish his counter, jump, or teleport after he does an option.

    Also Nariko can catch rolls with D+triangle, however she doesn’t get enough from it ( though it comboing into neutral square would be really nice actually). I think the greatest thing however is the safety Nariko gets from j.D+ Triangle coupled with her mobility really being defined by j.U+Triangle which she can follow up with a j.D+triangle or what not. Again most ground dash moves (ground moves in general really) are stifled in their use due to their slowness and inherent risk of being grounded. Characters most effective mobility attacks tend to be air based due to these reasons. While its range is noteworthy, due to ground walk speed there’s really nothing she can do at that particular range other than D+Triangle so that weakens the strength of the move other than punishing rolls. Plus a ton of characters can simply jump in and get a strong punish from Nariko whiffing D+Triangle, while j.D+Triangle on a grounded opponent gives her mobility options prior to using it, is exponentially safer, and nets her a far greater reward. So thats another reason why j.D+Triangle is just that much better than the ground version. Thats why Nariko’s continue to use it despite the glitch.
49. bc1910 February 10, 2014 at 2:56 pm

    Bamsama and I discussed the moves that we feel are problematically safe, factoring in their reward as well. Since you asked for a whole list we held off on detailed explanations to save space, but please feel free to ask for explanations about any of our choices.

    Big Daddy
    – None

    Cole
    – Forward Square -> Triangle (nerf hitstun)
    – Neutral Triangle (combined with Up Triangle or not, their range gives them too much reward against zoners like Sackboy)
    – Forward Circle
    – Air Down Circle
    – Air Up Circle

    Dante
    – None

    Drake
    – Down Square
    – Neutral Triangle, forward (run ‘n’ gun, increase time before it can be cancelled into Down Circle)

    Emmett
    – Neutral Triangle, Up Circle loadout (bouncy grenades, too safe when repeatedly thrown at a wall)
    – Neutral Triangle, Down Circle loadout (sticky grenades, indestructible when they hit the floor)

    Evil Cole
    – None

    Fat Princess
    – Air Neutral Square
    – Up Triangle (too safe as a wakeup move)
    – Air Neutral Triangle
    – Neutral Circle/Air Neutral Circle
    – Forward Circle
    – Up Circle/Air Up Circle

    Heihachi
    – Up Triangle

    Isaac
    – Neutral Square (walking)
    – Forward Triangle/Air Forward Triangle
    – Up Triangle
    – Air Down Triangle
    – Air Neutral Circle (too safe when fired at a corner)
    – Forward Circle
    – Camping his mine is too safe. Goes for all characters with mines.

    Jak
    – None

    Kat
    – Neutral Square Combo (all 3 moves)
    – Air Forward Square
    – Neutral Triangle
    – Air Neutral Triangle
    – Down Triangle (her hurtbox is too small, we understand it should be quite small but she can slide under Kratos’ jabs haha)
    – Down Triangle -> Square
    – Neutral Circle/Air Neutral Circle
    – Air Jump + Direction Dash (nerf ability to airdodge during dash)
    – Level 1 Super (on whiff)
    NB: Kat’s hitbox in general is too small and hard to hit. A slight enlargement would be nice.

    Kratos
    – Third Neutral Square attack
    – Up Square
    – Down Square
    – Air Neutral Square (remove jump cancel on whiff)
    – Air Forward Square (remove jump cancel on whiff)
    – Air Up Square (remove jump cancel on whiff)
    – Neutral Triangle

    Nariko
    – None

    Parappa
    – Up Square (long and short)
    – Air Forward Square
    – Air Down Square
    – Down Circle/Air Down Circle (he’s too mobile to have an AP generator with no cooldown)
    – Grab could use more recovery.

    Radec
    – None

    Ratchet
    – Air Forward Square (remove jump cancel on whiff)
    – Air Up Square
    – Air Neutral Triangle
    – Air Down Triangle

    Raiden
    – Assuming he loses Air Up Triangle -> Level 1, none.

    Sackboy
    – Up Triangle/Air Up Triangle
    – Up Circle/Air Up Circle
    – Down Circle/Air Down Circle
    – Grab, Up Throw (Sackboy should not get an AP burst from grab)

    Sir Daniel
    – Air Neutral Triangle could be a problem if Sir Daniel was seriously buffed. Since his rewards are so low right now though, it’s fine.

    Sly
    – Forward Triangle (should not bounce off block)
    – Air Forward Triangle (could increase startup instead)
    – Up Triangle/Air Up Triangle
    – Neutral Circle/Air Neutral Circle
    – Up Circle/Air Up Circle
    – Grab could use more recovery.
    – Camping his mine is too safe. Goes for all characters with mines.
    NB: All of Sly’s moves are arguably too safe. Due to the fact he can’t block, it’s okay for him to be a safe character. The attacks listed are the ones that we feel are FAR too safe, though.

    Spike
    – Air Down Circle (Green) bananas could be a problem if Spike was seriously buffed. Since his rewards are so low right now though, they’re fine.

    Sweet Tooth
    – Camping his mine is too safe. Goes for all characters with mines.

    Toro
    – None

    Zeus
    – None
50. bc1910 February 10, 2014 at 3:01 pm

    Sorry, for Sackboy that should be Down Triangle/Air Down Triangle (his checkpoint teleporter) instead of Up Triangle/Air Up Triangle (his little jetpack boost).