Version 1.10 of PlayStation All-Stars Battle Royale represents a comprehensive tuning patch that affects every character on the roster. Our goal was to identify the biggest imbalances in the game and carefully address them without diluting any fighter’s intended combat persona.
The update went live this afternoon, alongside the release of DLC characters Zeus and Isaac and the new Graveyard level. Detailed patch notes have already been posted online earlier in the week. I’m mirroring the complete verified list here, because frankly i’m proud of these changes and i hope the fighting game community embraces them.
General Changes
• AP burst victims in online matches no longer erroneously receive the 30 AP bonus.
• Blocking another attack while in block stun reaction no longer zeroes out X velocity.
• Characters can no longer block or dodge for 5 frames after landing during an air attack.
• Characters can not perform supers until frame 12 after landing during an air attack.
• Characters now remain grounded for the first 10 frames of jumping (previously 9 for Kat, Ratchet, Sackboy, Sly Cooper, and Spike).
Big Daddy
• Air F+Triangle has 11 additional frames of startup.
• Air D+Square now gains 20 AP (previously 10), and victim’s reaction is reduced by 3 frames.
• Level 1 Super now causes an initial stagger reaction on frame 36.
• Level 2 Super’s Triangle attacks are sped up.
• Level 3 Super attacks become active 3 frames sooner and recover 6 frames earlier.
• Level 3 Super attack volumes have been adjusted to be more centered around Big Daddy.
• Level 3 Super victims swim faster and no longer get stuck upon entering Infinite Avoidance.
Cole MacGrath
• F+Square -> Square hit volume enlarged to hit small characters more consistently.
• Neutral Triangle firing rate has been sped up by 4 frames (moved to its recovery instead).
• Ground neutral Circle recovery has been reduced to 20 frames (previously 28).
• Level 3 Super tornado movement speed has been increased.
Dante
• Ground neutral Square attacks can now be canceled into Triangle attacks on block.
• Dante can change facing direction between attacks during Square and F+Square chains.
• Ground U+Square is now jump-cancellable on both active frames.
• Air Square hit volumes were adjusted to combo more consistently against short characters.
• Air D+Square (Helm Breaker) now generates 20 AP (previously 10).
• Canceling ground U+Triangle into air neutral Circle now takes 2 frames longer.
• Neutral Circle active counter period has been reduced to 25 frames (previously 30).
• Neutral Circle recovery has been increased by 5 frames.
• Level 1 Super cost has been reduced to 125 AP (previously 150).
• Level 2 Super cost has been reduced to 325 AP (previously 400).
Nathan Drake
• Neutral Circle has been changed considerably:
• Barrel no longer explodes if countered or destroyed by opponents.
• Barrel’s hurtbox size has been increased, making it easier to destroy.
• Barrel’s lifetime has been reduced by 24 frames.
• Barrel’s explosion is now only active for 5 frames (previously 30).
• Teammates will no longer cause damage to friendly barrels.
• Hitting Drake with twitch attacks will no longer prevent him from creating a barrel.
• U+Triangle explosion is now only active for 5 frames (previously 15).
• U+Square explosion is now only active for 5 frames (previously 15).
• Level 1 Super hit volume has been reduced to 1.85 meters (previously 2.25m).
• Level 3 Super timing has been adjusted so that Drake and the Descendants now become controllable at the same time, 50 frames after the super is initiated.
Emmett Graves
• Level 2 Super cost has been reduced to 325 AP (previously 350).
Evil Cole
• F+Square -> Square hit volume enlarged to hit small characters more consistently.
• Neutral Triangle firing rate has been sped up by 4 frames (moved to its recovery instead).
• Neutral Triangle Overload size has been increased to 5.5 meters (previously 5m).
• Neutral Triangle Overload recovery has been reduced to 40 frames (previously 70).
• Fully charged neutral Circle punch has been changed considerably:
• Startup has been increased to 10 frames (previously 6).
• Active period has been decreased to 11 frames (previously 13).
• Recovery has been increased by 2 frames.
• Armor amount has been reduced to 11 AP.
• U+Circle chain has been standardized to generate 5 AP + 5 AP + 20 AP.
• Up Throw trajectory no longer allows guaranteed follow-up into lvl1 super.
• Level 2 Super startup has been reduced to 16 frames (previously 26).
• Level 2 Super blows up victims much faster, but can be extended to full length by holding R2. Evil Cole now drains AP from victims as you grab them, instead of at the very end of the super.
Fat Princess
• Neutral Square now causes a light overhead reaction and gains 5 AP (previously 10).
• Charged neural Square armor does not activate until frame 6 (previously 1).
• Air F+Circle (Summon Warrior) now has 21 additional frames of startup and longer recovery.
• If Fat Princess summons any assists in the air, she will now land in attack state.
• Level 3 Super effectively has been improved by increasing the number of mages and bombs that appear, removing the warriors’ startup delay, and allowing projectiles to begin tracking opponents during respawn invincibility.
Heihachi Mishima
• U+Square will not collide with other players for the first 26 frames of the attack, allowing the second uppercut to connect more consistently if the first one whiffs.
• Air U+Triangle now gains 20 AP (previously 10).
• F+Circle -> Square VFX for Wind God Fist and Electric Wind God Fist are now more distinct.
• Level 2 Super will no longer be extended if Heihachi is hit by a Freeze Missile.
Jak and Daxter
• Air F+Square now activates on frame 6, so it no longer drives through opponents.
• Neutral Triangle now causes a heavy reaction and gains 20 AP (previously 10).
• Neutral Triangle startup has been reduced to 20 frames (previously 28).
• Neutral Triangle recovery has been increased to 18 frames (previously 8).
• F+Triangle no longer causes an eject roll reaction, and each shot gains 6 AP (previously 10).
• F+Triangle shots fire 12 frames apart (previously 15) and travel 7 meters (previously 9m).
• F+Triangle now continues to fire when holding the button down.
• Neutral Circle (Drone) lasts 1 second longer and fires a total of 21 shots (previously 12).
• Neutral Circle laser shot lifetimes have been increased 0.3 seconds (previously 0.225 sec).
• F+Circle homing blasts have increased range (~8 meters) and speed, cause a mini-launch lift reaction, and accumulate 20 AP total (previously 10).
• U+Circle startup was reduced to 25 frames (previously 41) with 2 more frames of recovery.
• D+Circle hit volume has been reduced by 50% so that it no longer hits behind Jak.
• Level 1 Super cost has been reduced to 125 AP (previously 150).
• Level 2 Super now causes an initial shock reaction 12 frames after timescale returns to normal, which stuns nearby opponents and pushes them into the killing blow. The speed of the super has been increased by 25% and can now kill during the jump arc.
Kat
• Backward evade has been standardized to behave like the rest of the cast.
• Ground D+Square reaction has been shortened to 49 frames (previously 50) and D+Triangle minimum cancel times have been increased to 10 frames (previously 9) to prevent D+Square, D+Triangle -> Square infinite.
• Level 1 Super will no longer kill people protected by a Gravity Shield.
Kratos
• Second neutral Square attack recovery has been reduced to -10 on block (previously -14).
• Third neutral Square attack recovery has been increased to -10 on block (previously +0).
• Neutral Triangle now gains 20 AP consistently – it can no longer gain 40 AP.
Nariko
• Air U+Square startup has been increased by 2 frames and gravity properties were adjusted.
• Air D+Triangle now flattens victims that are grabbed out of the air.
• Air U+Circle now completes the entire animation upon landing.
• Level 2 Super cost has been reduced to 325 AP (previously 350).
• Level 2 Super ammo limit has been removed and rate of fire has been decreased. Turning the cannon around will now knock away any nearby opponents.
• Level 3 Super now ends properly when the timer expires, and can no longer be extended by performing her Circle attack or holding L1 to block.
Parappa
• Ground F+Square pushback has been reduced to allow more follow-up options.
• Ground D+Square -> F+Square chain has been removed for easier U+Square follow-ups.
• D+Circle (Boxy Boy) will no longer repeatedly eject AP orbs when dropped inside a ledge.
• Level 2 Super duration has been shortened to 4 seconds (previously 5 sec).
Col. Mael Radec
• U+Circle active period has been increased to 70 frames (previously 40).
Raiden
• Air D+Triangle, air F+Circle, and air F+Triangle are all more punishable on block.
• Down Throw now causes a bounce reaction, allowing combo follow-ups.
• Level 1 Super recovery was increased by 8 frames and can no longer be steered using LS.
• Level 2 Super air Square and air Triangle attacks are no longer blockable.
• Level 3 Super decoy NPC boxes will now cause the game camera to zoom out properly.
• Air U+Circle will no longer perform follow-up stomps on destroyed boxes during lvl3 super.
Ratchet and Clank
• Neutral Circle (Mr. Zurkon) fires 15 shots (previously 17), each worth 2 AP (previously 1).
• D+Circle (Tesla Spike) has 6 AP of durability (previously 1).
• Throw victims no longer cause twitch reactions after being shot out of the Suck Cannon.
• Level 1 Super projectile collision was shrunk by 90% to increase effectiveness on ramps.
• Level 2 Clank can now be hit by Raiden’s lvl2 initial burst and Jak’s lvl2 initial shock.
Sackboy
• Neutral Triangle (Jam Session) startup has been reduced to 40 frames (previously 57).
• F+Triangle frame advantage has been increased by +5 on hit.
• F+Triangle can now be canceled by rolling and jumping during the charge-up period.
• Down Square (Bounce Pad) active period ends after 0.3 seconds, matching the air version.
• Neutral Circle (Cake Mine) will disappear after 5 seconds.
• D+Circle (Electric Panel) startup has been increased by 16 frames and recovery has been extended slightly. Interrupting Sackboy during startup will now prevent the Electric Panel from being created. The mine itself can now be absorbed and reflected.
• Level 1 Super cost has been reduced to 125 AP (previously 150).
• Level 2 Super cost has been reduced to 325 AP (previously 400).
• Level 3 Super victim bubbles are now able to move 50% faster.
Sir Daniel
• Down Throw no longer makes Sir Daniel jump on the wrong side of the victim.
• Level 1 Super active period has been increased by 8 frames.
• Level 1 Super recovery has been reduced by 4 frames.
• Level 2 Super cost has been reduced to 325 AP (previously 350).
• Level 2 Super homing Spirits now have delayed activation, following the non-homing Spirits. They will not blow up on opponents as they leave the Chalice, improving the chance that one homing projectile per opponent will remain after after any initial kills.
Sly Cooper
• Neutral Circle active counter period has been reduced to 15 frames (previously 26).
• Neutral Circle recovery has been increased to 25 frames (previously 11).
• Level 1 Super is now vulnerable from frame 5 until Murray’s hit volume becomes active. Interrupting Sly during startup will now prevent Murray from attacking. The hit volume that appears when Murray splats onto the ground has been made smaller.
Spike
• F+Square causes a stagger reaction and gains 20 AP (previously 30) when not fully charged.
• Air D+Triangle now gains 5 AP (previously 10 AP), causes a shock reaction with correct hit stun, and can be countered by projectile counters.
• Neutral Circle now has an extra 5 AP running hit added to its second stage.
• Forward Throw (Monkey Trip!) now causes an eject roll reaction (previously stagger).
• Throws have been remapped to be more intuitive:
• Up Throw: Sonic Revolution (cases eject tornado reaction)
• Forward Throw: Monkey Trip! (causes eject roll reaction)
• Down Throw: Crash Hurricane (causes flatten reaction).
• Level 1 and Level 2 Supers can properly change facing direction on activation.
• Level 2 Super projectile travels faster and explodes on impact with solid walls.
Sweet Tooth
• Ground neutral Triangle can now be steered using LS while active.
• Ground neutral Triangle now gains 30 AP total (previously 8 AP) from a victim caught in front. Victims behind get ejected (previously light reaction) and earn 30 AP (previously 10).
• Air neutral Triangle now gains 30 AP total (previously 25 for front hits and 15 on back hits).
• U+Triangle (Machete Toss) now continues through all opponents after a successful hit. The machete’s hit volume now deactivates properly when it becomes lodged in the ground.
• Level 2 Super cost has been reduced to 325 AP (previously 400).
• Level 2 Super rocket explosion radius has been enlarged by 0.5 meters, missile flight speed and maneuverability have been increased, and minimum detonation time has been decreased to 6 frames (previously 15).
• Level 3 Super duration has been reduced to 13.5 seconds (previously 15 sec).
Toro Inoue
• Ground neutral Circle duration is now infinite.
• Oni air Up+Triangle can now only be used once per jump.
• Oni air D+Triangle startup has been increased by 9 frames with 4 more frames of recovery.
• Level 1 and Level 2 Supers can now turn around properly during the first 5 frames of activation and will no longer slide during activation if Toro was running.
Items
• LR-3 Railgun hit volume thickness has been doubled and aiming sensitivity reduced.
• Sonic Rift hit volume sizes have been increased by 33%.
• Sturgeon power swing armor has been extended until the end of its active period.
• Murder of Crows and Sackbot can no longer be countered during their AP eject hits.
• Sackbot no longer allows opponents to generate AP or pick up AP orbs while attached.
• Spear of Destiny now has 21 AP of armor during startup and active frames. The initial strike now generates 20 AP (previously 10).
Also in regards to Nariko Maj, we both agree that if the j.D+Triangle can not be properly fixed then she should in fact have her j.D+Triangle back ( buttdrop reaction from anywhere). To remove the inability for her to false wall infinite, her combo grab could be either A) out of uthrow where the end kick portion is removed so she can do a max range U+Triangle to her BnB combo or B) change the hitstun on the kick portion of her uthrow so she jump cancel the kick into j. U+Triangle> j. Neutral+Circle > any ender. Then she would still have her mixup game with key poses from high j.U+triangle with just enough time for a safe jump in into her mix ups.
There really is no way for her to have an infinite provided her combo grab starts high enough. It also is a step closer to a character having a proper air to air punishment, and lastly being something that relatively safe put it is still within the realms of being punishable. I truly believe the initial reactions to her were far-fetched because her early dominance in 2 v 2. At this time period she wouldnt be nearly as strong even with her old moveset; far more characters have great supers, stage control, etc. that surpass her strengths. Nariko as a character has decent setups for her lvl2; her issue is her lvl1 is nigh unusable even with a proper read ( which is horrific imo) and her lvl2 confirms comprise her greatly on her opponents respawn ( by the time the opponents invincibility wears out she exits her lvl2 and is susceptible to a kill confirm or raw lvl1). Giving her a combo throw and a proper j.D+Triangle (either the buttdrop from anywhere or at least on the ground version) would aid her greatly. Add to that a useable lvl1 ( not even a kill confirm for it just a place where it can actually be utilized if an opponent is read) then she would be in a good place.
Wow, sorry for the TRIPLE post, but Isaac’s grab is too safe considering he gets bursts and kill confirms from it, and it could use some more cooldown.
So Maj, how do you think ground mobility could be enhanced given the current standing of the game? Just a curious as to your input on that. I do love that idea you said the other day in terms of using Hermes animation for a dash ( with a double tap input). Is there anything possible you could see that could better the ground speed as whole? ( i know you said quickening the walk speed wouldn’t look that good, though thatd be the best solution).
Lastly bc and I gave our 2 cents on what needs to be looked at, however we have a good list at the thread I linked you with. Few top players like us put it together. Also Maj when are you available to come to an All Star fest? I will get one together that fits within your time frame.
bc1910: Hmm, that’s a pretty long list. Some of it is easily doable, but some of it is quite complicated. For instance, making mines unsafe is almost impossible.
I’m not sure what can be done about Fat Princess’ assists either, apart from giving her a summoning animation which would amount to a complete redesign. What makes her U+Triangle too safe as a wakeup move?
Also why shouldn’t Sackboy have an AP burst from up throw? And how bad is Parappa’s U+Square? I kind of feel like if Parappa is in U+Square range, then he’s earned the opportunity to perform a safe offensive move. Lastly, what would you do about Parappa’s D+Circle?
Bamsama: Messing with core navigation on that level is super risky. It’s just plain difficult and there’s a lot that can go wrong. Personally i’d be against changing anything that fundamental at this stage. But if we’re talking about a sequel, then i think adding a ground dash is the way to go.
I’m generally free on weekends, as long as you let me know a few days ahead of time. Just send me an email and we’ll figure something out.
As far as FP goes I think the major change needed is her fireball assist. Duration is too low for a that covers tons of key space (sh and ground). Everything else becomes less absurd. (Which is y FP mains agree on that change).
Parappa’s uppercut on paper may seem okay; however due to his ap box he dictates the pace of the match. You have to get in on him; not the other way around. So he is able to use a safe anti air move that also can help him run away with his skateboard dive due to its jump cancel ability and general low cool down then he can put down another box safely due to his mobility and restart the process..
Yeah, it’s pretty long but we feel there are quite a few moves that can just be thrown into the world with no risk and good reward. For FP I think the assists themselves should just be nerfed, allow all characters to get AP for hitting them (Nariko can get AP for hitting minions with D+Triangle or Air D+Triangle, I forget which) or reduce their hitboxes. The balancers were definitely on the right track with nerfing her divekick minion.
Her Up Triangle puts her in an aerial state very close to frame 1, I know it’s not exactly frame 1 but it’s definitely close, and it’s definitely while her animation would suggest she’s still on the ground. Which means you can’t reliably grab the move on wakeup. So then you have a large, spinning, fairly high priority hitbox surrounding her whilst she’s in the air (thus you won’t get a buttdrop or anything substantial if you trade with it), and it has almost no ending lag whatsoever. You can punish with a long disjoint but not many characters can do it; even fewer can get more than a ~20 AP hit as the punish. She then lands and suffers the attack land state, which is something, but it’s very short. U+Triangle is basically a get out of jail free against most oki setups, it doesn’t need a huge nerf but a little more ending lag to make it less safe on block, perhaps -10 so it can be jabbed, would be nice.
The issue with Sackboy’s up throw bursts and AP bursts in general, such as the burst off the shockpad, is that his AP gain is a little too good for a character who only needs 750 AP to win a 3 stock match.
Parappa’s D+Circle was a move Bam brought up. I personally would reduce the amount of AP it generates down to 20-25 rather than change its safety, but I think Bam wants him to have more lag when he throws out the boombox so that running to a different spot and camping the boombox is less effective. I can see why you’d say that about the uppercut but because the boombox forces you to go to Parappa, it doesn’t really work like that. He hasn’t done anything to approach you and earn that free poke. In terms of skewed risk/reward, Parappa’s uppercut is one of the worst offenders. I think it’s one of the first 3 that I would personally nerf, after Kat’s Neutral Triangle and Cole’s Forward Circle.
Again Maj I would encourage to look at the community notes left for Tank and the rest of Santa Monica. Its the most complete and properly reviewed set of notes of things that need adjustments; from characters to general mechanic changes.
However as top level members in the online community we can give you detailed explanations as to why things are the way they are. Majority of these moves require very little changes frame wise. Just tweaks here and there. Also some are only strong compounded by other moves so if a key move is turned down then the rest of the moveset is fine. So please take that into consideration with our list.
Also for mines perhaps shortening their duration would a step in the right direction. Mines being safe is fine; however most can camp in front of one for a prolonged period of time. Less time would make mines more risky but still inherently good.
Hay maj, since you’re still passionate about allstars, why dont you ask ssm to give a job in making the allstars patch? You seem like the most qualified to for making it, i bet ssm and their external dev team have no idea what they’re doing right now.
Maj has been pretty busy as of late, so Im sure he wouldnt have time to take on additional project if he wasn’t already apart of it to begin with. Whichever it may be Maj cares about the project he was apart of and has a good mind on his shoulders to discuss the game. Itd definitely be great if he was apart of that team (of course that’s his business).
Bamsama: I have looked through that list. It’s very informative and it’s got a lot of good ideas. But it’s also got a lot of unnecessary changes, a lot of requests that are simply impossible, some stuff i just plain disagree with, and some outright craziness like keeping Zeus’ evade invincibility.
The biggest issue is that it’s so massive, i don’t know how you can possibly be sure that the end result will be balanced with so many drastic changes. But then again, there’s no such thing as a perfect balance patch. Anyway i appreciate that you guys took the time to compile it. I’m sure it wasn’t easy getting everyone on the same page.
khknight: Saying things like that is pretty much never a good idea. You can’t get someone to invest effort into making what you want if you insult them in the process of asking for it. I understand you guys are frustrated by the delay, but until SMS says the patch is canceled, it’s better to stay positive.
I do see what you are saying in regards of some of the impossible or ridiculous changes. We’ve both talked about Zeus and you know I definitely do not believe Zeus should keep his evade invincibility. That character does indeed need drastic changes to be viable though. I don’t know one should go about it but I feel improvements to his clone, teleport (which is pretty punishable with both versions at this point, maybe a cool down that is short enough to be only majorly punished by jabs iono) or making his D+Circle ( uncharged) actually viable. Something has to be done with him.
Balancing top tiers (core changes) is fairly easy sans Kat and Isaac ( although those Kat changes I posted would definitely balance her out) : Raiden need his air Flip to Lvl1 confirm gone, less time on his lvl2 and need j.D+Triangle back to how it used to be. Fat Princess just really needs a fireball nerf and slightly less time on her lvl2. Kratos just needs more cool down on jabs, his up+square, neutral triangle so that hes not as strong at point blank.Also he needs his jump cancel moves on whiff removed. Good Cole just need ice ball and air ice block to have more cool down, shorter lvl1 range and air ice jump to more startup.
Im fairly certain that the tweaks given in that Tank Notes thread that are possible will suffice in balancing this game. If you then remove some of the current long ap lvl1 confirms in top tiers, you have a game that becomes more complex and gives more opportunities for the better player to come out on top. Thats the major issue now; some moves are too safe and the best movement is jumping. So people just play safe until they land a poke in which most top tier can confirm into a kill. will try to plan something next week if you are intersted in playing as well.
Hmm, two questions:
1) How big do you guys think Fat Princess’ fireball hitbox is?
2) How much block advantage do you think Kat’s D+Triangle -> Square has?
Also i should available next weekend. What do you have in mind?
Actually I think Fat Princess should have her F+Circle knight slowed down instead of a Level 2 duration nerf. Or both, but the knight nerf should come first. She currently has the Raiden syndrome of killing you if you make even one mistake, the only difference is you have to make a grounded mistake against her. Which is better than dying from any mistake but it’s still not healthy for balance. The knight nerf would also remove all her Level 2 confirms except situational wall ones.
I don’t know how big the fireball hitbox is but it’s larger than the animation which is already pretty big.
Kat’s D+Triangle -> Square recovers almost instantly, I can’ t see its block advantage being anything more punishable than -8, which means only the fastest jabs can punish it.
Yeah, the explosion is kinda big and easily reduced. The projectile hitbox is pretty small though, about the same size as Drake’s neutral Triangle bullets.
And yeah, Kat’s D+Triangle -> Square is around -7 on block. But considering she doesn’t have a counter and the move itself has considerable startup when you factor in the dash startup, i don’t really see it as that bad.
All you have to do is block it to claim the initiative because she doesn’t have an instant counter, so there’s nothing she can do to maintain momentum after it’s blocked. I mean it’s a fine line. If you add 3 frames of recovery, suddenly it’s -10 and punishable by everyone – and we’re talking AP burst combos for half the cast.
I mean i can sort of see how adding 2 frames of recovery would be okay if you’re sure that’s what everyone wants, but i’m having a hard time seeing how D+Triangle -> Square is the problem with Kat.
Wait what? Drake’s bullets are the same size as the fireball projectile? That would make them huge!
Her D+Triangle -> Square is safe on block, relatively safe on whiff and the startup is mitigated by the fact that her hitbox is miniscule during the slide. The reward is a Level 1 kill confirm or a pseudo touch of death combo. Whilst it’s not the main problem with Kat it’s still not a balanced move.
It’s not the first thing I’d nerf about her but I think that’s because Neutral Triangle and Neutral Circle are so incredibly good. Because D+Triangle -> Square starts a touch of death, I think it more than earns its place on the list. Now if her debris confirms are getting removed things are a little different but we tried not to make any assumptions with the list, and we noted any assumptions we did make (such as Raiden losing Air U+Triangle, Level 1).
Also since you know Kat’s D+Triangle -> Square is around -7 on block I might as well ask, do you have any other frame data you can give us? Even if it’s just little snippets you remember like that, anything is helpful.
Sorry for double posting but I should mention we do have startup frame data for the whole cast’s jabs. It seems most jabs have 10 frames of startup, but a few of them are faster at 8 or 9 frames and Ratchet, Fat Princess and Zeus have slow jabs. Also we have startup frame data for Isaac’s entire moveset and all of Raiden’s important moves except F+Square.
Is there any particular reason why Raiden’s jab has 10 frames of startup as opposed to 9 frames, which Dante and Kratos have? All three of them are melee characters with a ranged weapon and Raiden’s jab has much less reward than Dante’s or Kratos’. I know the empty cancel wasn’t known in development, but I’m assuming Dante’s ability to AP burst off his jab was known, as well as Kratos’ ability to do that.
The thing is Maj FPs fireball is a pretty good speed and allows FP to occupy ground and sh range without doing anything. Id compare it to Yoga Catastrophe; it really has amazing utility. Ground knight is definitely huge; its a key part in a ton of her combos adds amazing pressure and comes out absurdly quick. If there is a way to balance out the massive amount of lvl 1 and 2 options it gives then I think thats a good deal.
Regarding Kats d+Triangle-> square I think that you are both correct; the move in itself is okay (aside from the slide hurtbox going under everything due to the massive lack of lows in this game.) However it becomes amazing if debris is left as is. I think that it being a great disadvantage but not a true punish is fine. As long as the necessary nerfs happen to debris lvl1 and her slide hurtbox is enlarged. Then it becomes similar to Raiden f+square in terms of not absurdly fast startup and not insanely safe due to the right amount of disadvantage on block. Its main issue is the slide hurtbox itself. However it should be noted that due to myriad of mixups she gets from her slide it perhaps makes more sense to put 2 more frames of recovery. Because even though the move + dash frames is not that great of speed its a mobility option preceeding it with other options available ( its same way I’d view anything from El Fuerte’s dash).
I was also was thinking Maj what are your thoughts to improving ground dash/mobility attacks to better suit their function? Just a random example, making Sir Dans dash have a shorter cool down. Stuff like that wold be easier to accomplish and eould go with the orginal ideology of the game.
Anyways I was thinking of doing an Allstar fest or a small tournament together. Who do u play in this game?
I don’t disagree that Fat Princess’ fireball minion is a dominant move. I’m just saying the projectile hitbox isn’t that big, so making it smaller isn’t the answer. It’s already way smaller than the fireball’s VFX.
Maybe the answer is making the Mage minion hang around a little longer before disappearing, but i don’t know if that animation has any extra frames that are unused. Playrating those things is way more complicated/impossible than playrating character anims.
Regarding frame data, i actually didn’t remember Kat’s either. I just asked another designer who happened to (vaguely) remember that one move because it was patched once to remove a dumb loop. As for Raiden’s neutral Square startup, i think it has something to do with making sure his neutral Triangle chain mixups are frame traps and not combos.
I used to play everyone, but i probably used Kratos, Radec, Dante, Sweet Tooth, and Evil Cole slightly more than the others. Although i never really got the hang of Dante’s empty cancel enough to try it in matches. I like learning that kind of stuff for combo videos sometimes, but for matches i usually prefer characters who don’t rely on combos that are hard to do consistently. To me, dropping a combo is pretty much the most annoying way to lose a match. CvS2 C-Ken used to break my heart all the time because of that.
Weird, the hitbox seems bigger than the fireball. I would say online has something to do with it being hard to dodge but it still seems massive offline. Well in any case, if the projectile is already small then adding ending lag might work. Out of interest was her Air F+Circle animation playrated to give it more ending lag in patch 1.10 or were there unused frames?
You played a real mix of characters then. Actually as you mention Evil Cole, I’ve always wondered something. Was his Up Throw to Level 1 confirm known in development? I personally never had a massive issue with that confirm but a lot of players were up in arms about it. I can understand why, because the throw confirm plus D+Circle and fully charged Neutral Circle gave him an almost inescapable oki setup where he could convert every defensive option into a Level 1 kill just by reacting to his opponent’s wakeup choice.
The fireball vfx makes sense; with my online training buddy I was able to time Raiden u+circles (auto dive kick) over his fireballs because of the small hitbox compared to its visual. I think the duration change would be the most effective however as you said theyre could be issues with that.
I’ll hit up some people this week and see if theyre free to play. What’s your email address? I can send you info.
bc1910: I’m not sure how the air F+Circle minion anim was extended in 1.10, but my guess would be that there were unused frames. The original animator for Fat Princess was still around back then though, so he might’ve helped. His name was Mike McReynolds, by the way. He animated Fat Princess, Sly, Ratchet, and Sackboy. That dude was amazing.
If i remember correctly, i don’t think we knew about Evil Cole’s up throw into lvl1 super. That character was underpowered for a while, then a couple minor things changed and everyone started using him in FFA, then that stuff had to be toned down so he could be examined objectively, so it took a while to get all those distractions out of the way. Right now i think he’s in a pretty good place, so taking away that confirm was probably the right choice.
Bamsama: Cool, just let me know. Anytime this coming weekend (22nd/23rd) would be perfect – as long as you guys don’t try to put me on stream, haha. I’d rather hang out with whoever still plays the game in SoCal and just talk for a little while. My email is in the contact info link on the right.
Sent you an email; we will definitely get something done this weekend.
I’m still thinking on how dash attack moves can be altered to better serve their purpose. Id say right now the best “dash attack” in this game is probably ST’s j. F+ Square. His F+Square is pretty good purpose wise as well however its cooldown should be more akin to a jab punish ( -9 on block) imo which would be perfect. j.F+Square is good because air wise it allows him to weave in and out and when done low to the ground its virtually lagless and can be complemented with a ground F+Square or in either direction to advance or retreat. Just a thought process in my head.
I was also contemplating how Raiden’s F+Circle would function better as a dash. Perhaps allowing it to cancel into his back stab ( B+Square) at any point ( as you can do with it currently on hit) it would also be a more effective dash attack. If you didn’t know, a few of us Raiden’s use the F+Circle > Back stab to cancel its standard ending lag. It isn’t all too much faster but it gives an actual AP burst when done correctly on hit. It still is definitely punishable even with the backstab cancel. Which would make it better in terms of movement and still quite risky as an actual attack. I was even thinking how turning it’s hit reaction into an eject roll would work.
How would you go about such things Maj? I always interested in your input. If you have guessed bc1910 and I among some other quality players discuss these kinds of notions a ton.
I should just make it clear that Raiden’s F+Circle can cancel into B+Square on whiff as well as on hit, and my suggestion of an eject roll reaction should be done in combination with drastically lowering the ending lag of F+Circle. This would prevent it from being a Level 1 kill confirm, which it’s in danger of when lowering the ending lag and keeping the buttdrop stagger.
Sorry to ask about Raiden again, he’s just really interesting to me since I main him and I won’t get many opportunities to talk about his development. I was watching some old trailers and gameplay videos that involved Raiden and I noticed a lot of his moves had much lower recovery, primarily F+Circle and B+Square’s follow-up slash (the one that causes a kneel stagger reaction). Was recovery added to remove the Level 1 confirms that probably resulted from these moves? Or was it more to make him fit with his intended “unsafe” combat persona more effectively? He still had quite a lot of Level 1 confirms at release including one from Forward Throw, though nowhere near as many as he has now.
Bamsama: Got the email, thanks. Just let me know when/where you guys are meeting up and i’ll try to be there. Out of curiosity, how many PASBR players are there in SoCal?
Whenever you ask about making a change, there are three ways to answer the question: early development, late development, and small-scale patch. For early development, almost anything can be answered with a yes. For late development, if you can make a convincing argument that something would be better if done another way, there’s a good chance it’ll go through as long as it doesn’t require too many (or preferably any) new assets. For a patch, generally the change has to be a direct fix to an acknowledged problem without any new assets.
Not only are patches (always!) made by far fewer people than the original team, but there are strict memory limits to consider. If you add new animations or new effects to a character, it might nudge them over their allocated memory limit. Then the game starts slowing down and/or crashing. And of course artists like to push everything to the memory limit before release because that’s how you get the best possible graphics.
Raiden’s F+Circle could probably be refined a little further but right now i don’t think it’s problematic enough to warrant a change. So personally i’d probably just leave it alone.
The one big problem i see with F+Circle is that the air version is so much better than the ground version. But you can’t ignore newcomers when you think about that move, because it controls too much important space. It’s hard for beginner and intermediate players to deal with those horizontal traversal moves. Street Fighter has the same problem with stuff like Blanka ball and Honda headbutt.
In other words, i don’t think ground F+Circle should be safe at all. What makes it seem weird is that the air version is so much better. But that’s a problem with the air version. Ideally, the air version would be much worse at hitting opponents on the ground, so it couldn’t be used as a superior substitute to ground version.
Unfortunately, PASBR doesn’t have any global systems for identifying air dash moves that are done “too close” to the floor and forcing them into their ground versions. Or rather, the systems in place don’t catch Raiden’s F+Circle for a couple of reasons.
bc1910: The recovery for those moves was increased because F+Circle, F+Square used to be an infinite and B+Square was an infinite by itself if you just turned around and did it again after the followup slash. The trailer footage just had to be recorded early, when those moves were almost ready but not quite tuned for combos.
Generally it’s a helpful to have a rough idea of what kinds of combos a character will have when you’re designing their moves. But plotting out every potential combo ahead of time is impractical, so removing infinites is usually the last step in the process.
oh Maj I didnt believe F+Circle should be safe. I was speaking of its backstab cancel being possible at any point of the moves duration on whiff. The backstab itself is only a few frames safer than naturally ending the move and due to the nature of the move would never hit any opponent unless you cross under them and did the back stab cancel. I absolutely agree with the current safety of the move; its a large hitbox and as you said high priority dash attacks or moves that tend to cover a good amount of grounded horizontal range absolutely destroy beginners and some intermediate players. I think you may have mixed my statement up with bc1910 who would like F+Circle to be safer but would rather an eject roll hit reaction to balance it out.
I was just thinking about how to tweak the dash attack within the game to fulfill their purpose. It was less a request than a hypothetical, as what you would do “perfect” the dash attacks in the game, to be functional but not overbearing because of issues just discussed. Such as the earlier example I brought up with Sweet Tooth.
Yeah its unfortunate because the air version of F+Circle is exponentially better overall and for movement. While i do believe it has some function in its speed + range, its generally inferior. As a developer, what are key moves you would change or characters you would look at for the patch? Also have you watched a fair amount of the competitive 1v1 matches in this game?
Yes, the air version of F+Circle is infinitely better than the ground version. Though not as good as it used to be when it had no recovery whatsoever and passed right through block haha. Whilst I wouldn’t say F+Circle is useless I barely use the move, and when I do use it it’s usually by accident because I was trying to do Air F+Circle too close to the ground.
Oh yeah, I guess those moves would have looped. I’m guessing his various U+Square, Air U+Triangle loops were allowed to stay cause they look pretty cool (much better than stagger loops at least) and require good timing and spacing to perform.
By the way, as I remembered to ask, is there any particular reason why Kratos was never heavily nerfed? He’s had a few “slaps on the wrist” and the nerf to F+Square’s homing angle was very helpful but aside from that he’s never really changed, despite being almost universally complained about since day 1. Other characters that people complained about a lot were nerfed in this patch for the most part, particularly Drake and Evil Cole. This patch also made Raiden less effective for FFA in my opinion though he’s a lot better overall, although I feel like that was by accident. Did you guys want to give people more time to adapt to Kratos properly?
I explained it horrifically but thats pretty much what I was gunning for I wasnt sure idle entailed airdodge landing which is why I said what I did but this is absolutely perfect Maj.
Dante 1.11
Turn down your volume in the beginning
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MalorDQ3woI
Whoa, that Dante video is amazing. I love every single Stowaways clip!
There’s a few things in the community podcast thread i wanted to ask about:
1) How many air stalls are there and how are they performed?
2) What exactly are Isaac’s throw reflect glitches?
3) What are Parappa’s board cancels? The explanation isn’t very clear so i wasn’t able to reproduce the glitch.
Bamsama: I’ve watched a fair amount of competitive 1v1 and 2v2 matches. Every week or two, i’ll watch a couple just to see what the top players are up to. And i watch the matches that people point out to me.
bc1910: Raiden’s air U+Triangle combos were allowed to stay because at least they require some reactive improvisation, so they don’t look like typical loops. I mean every time you do that combo, the timing and spacing is slightly different, plus you have to watch out for walls and platforms. Whereas if F+Circle, F+Square was a loop, it would look the exact same every time.
And Kratos hasn’t been nerfed ’cause he’s wicked rad!
No, seriously, there just weren’t a lot of dedicated Kratos players at the time. You guys mentioned that too – not a lot of top players use him even though he’s considered top tier. So we just made small FFA-focused adjustments to Kratos because the complaints about other 2v2/1v1 characters (Sackboy, Drake, Nariko, Evil Cole, etc.) were much more prevalent.
That’s interesting. In terms of FFA especially though, Kratos has been universally complained about for as long as I can remember. How come he wasn’t nerfed harder for that mode?
1. I’ll list all the air stalls I can remember here. Most stalls are issues with characters counting as grounded despite the fact they are in the air.
I should note before I start that Zeus doesn’t have an infinite air stall but he can stay in the air for far too long by spamming charged Air Down Circle which wouldn’t matter by itself, however he can get incredibly high up using Air Up Square/Air Up Circle before stalling.
Sackboy can air stall by using Air F+Circle then using U+Circle, for some reason he counts as grounded for a frame or so after using Air F+Circle. This means he is using the grounded version of U+Circle in the air.
Toro can stall in Oni form by doing Air U+Triangle, Air Neutral Circle, Air D+Circle, repeat. This was supposed to be removed but still works, you just need the extra step of Air D+Circle.
Sly has two stalls. By repeatedly using Air U+Circle he can barrel to the top of the screen. You have to hold up and X, then mash Circle. Seems to work because of his parachute mechanics. Also he can repeatedly use Air Neutral Circle, Up X (super jump) because Air Neutral Circle makes him count as grounded at the end for some reason.
Whilst not technically a stall, if Ratchet uses Air U+Square close to the ground he gets his double jump back. He can then double jump cancel and do Air U+Square close to the ground again for as long as he wants.
Parappa counts as grounded at the end of his Level 2 and can spam U+Triangle to stall.
2. Isaac’s throw sometimes makes projectiles float in place, if he gets attacked whilst reflecting a projectile he will become “bulletproof” and reflect projectiles on his own. There are other ways to activate this “bulletproof” glitch but I’m not sure what they are. I personally would just remove his throw reflect if the glitches can’t be fixed.
3. I have limited knowledge of these because Smash_and_Crash won’t tell anyone how they’re done for fear of people finding out and abusing it online, like people are doing with the Toro Level 2 glitch. But basically, Parappa can make himself count as grounded in the air permanently, with the ability to walk and everything. If he grabs an opponent they will be locked in an infinite down state, where they will be laying down but the knockdown invincibility won’t kick in. It’s something to do with the behaviour of Parappa’s Neutral Triangle. After he uses this move, then blocks, as long as the block is not buffered then a small blip of Parappa’s skateboard will appear several feet in front of him for a split second. I will try to find out how this glitch is done.
Bc pretty much answered all the stalls. Also the primary activator of that Isaac glitch is the one stated; if that could be dealt (since its not possible to remove the attribute all together) it should be okay. Hopefully we can get the parappa info to you soon.
Glad you liked the combo video. There was a Fight Club Invitational that very Saturday as well; with some good level play. I have to filter through them soon so I’ll send the better ones your way. They’ll probably a good amount of sly ones as our top sly dominated everyone that day haha. Anyways hope all things are well with you Maj, and thanks for entertaining our questions.
Sent you an email with a video compilation of the stalls, some great gameplay, and some degenerative gameplay. I’ll look for a videos for current game glitches as well. Hope you enjoy
sorry for the triple post; but how should we go about getting combo videos like that up on SRK Maj? there’s a ton of fun ones from that Youtube channel that I think will hype up the community about the game.
Maj, I had an idea to get rid of online tick throw setups. You know how you’re able to hold L1 to buffer block whilst you’re being comboed on the ground? So you’ll be blocking as soon as you escape hitstun? What about if you were able to hold X to buffer jumping whilst you’re being comboed on the ground? This would let you jump as soon as you exit hitstun, buffering the jump a lot earlier than you’re able to now. It’s not a perfect fix obviously, you’d be committed to holding X if you read a grab and probably unable to punish the grab because you won’t be able to short hop, but you could still escape massive resets safely.
Sorry for the double post, but I should mention I brought this idea up in the general mechanics podcast should you have listened to that. I also had another idea about cancelling hitstun slightly early with jumping but I think you’ve been otherwise informed about that haha.
bc1910: Thanks for the info. By the way, did you guys ever figure out exactly how the Toro lvl2 freeze glitch is performed? And is there a list of all the supers which allow that turning freeze exploit?
As for your jumping idea, i think it’s very creative and interesting in theory. I never would’ve thought of that myself. Personally i like combos being clearly defined, so hit stun being cancelable seems weird to me.
Plus how would it mesh with the infinite avoidance system? If you start jumping then you’re technically not in reaction state, so does that reset the combo? Or if create a separate jump start state exclusively for that scenario, when does it reset the combo? Because if it’s at the same time as usual, then you run into a desync problem of the combo being considered over on one machine while continuing on the other, which means AP burst triggers at different times.
I actually had a similar idea of making characters unthrowable for 3 frames after a reaction. The problem with that is it adversely affects offline gameplay, because throws are generally active for 3 frames which means tick throw setups become much harder. And even that margin would be fine, except 3 frames is only 50 ms. Most people have latency around 100-150 ms, but 6-9 frames of throw invincibility would totally screw up the entire throw game.
Simply buffering the jump input by holding X is a good idea, but nothing like that exists in PASBR, so it’d be pretty hard to implement from scratch. Unfortunately i don’t think there’s a perfect solution to this problem.
Bamsama: Thanks for the video links. Probably the best way to get stuff posted on SRK is just to keep sending them emails whenever something new is released. They have a contact info list on the sidebar at the bottom of the front page, so just keep trying and see what happens. Although they generally only post new stuff, so you can’t really send them month-old videos no matter how good they are.
As far as I’m aware, Toro’s Level 1 and Level 2 are the only supers to activate that glitch. I’m certain it has to do with the fact that the startup frame turnarounds are very poorly coded, making Toro use his meter twice if you turn around during startup frames. It’s done by holding left on the dpad and right on the analog stick, then activating super. It can only be done on a Vita. The Level 1 glitch causes slowdown and crashing, the Level 2 glitch causes crashing and potentially bricks PS3s. Vita users have the option of quitting the game after performing the glitch so their system will not crash or get bricked.
I would say the IAS should kick in as normal, even if you get hit during the jump frames, thus a different jump start state would be needed. I can understand how that would a nightmare with desynching though.
Making characters throw invulnerable for a few frames after hitstun seems like a good idea to me, I didn’t think that would be possible to code. I guess I don’t know anything about what is and isn’t possible, some things that I thought would be possible to patch out seem to be impossible haha.
To be honest, the whole problem with tick throw setups lies primarily in Kat/Isaac/Raiden’s psuedo touch of death combos. If these characters lose their confirms from throw anyway, the issue of tick throw setups is less prominent. Yes, characters like Evil Cole (with a wall), Cole (with platforms) and even Toro (with false walls) retain pseudo-touch of death combos, but they’re much more situational, especially in Toro’s case. If the Coles were to get a hitbox nerf to their Level 1s then their variants probably wouldn’t even work. In general, the fact you can super through tick throw setups even online is very helpful because the risk of dying often outweighs the reward you get from a throw except for the characters who can kill you. Being able to Level 1 through tick throw setups has really helped control them and stop them from becoming even more overbearing, though obviously it’s not perfect since if someone reads it you’ll have wasted a lot of meter and probably get punished hard.
In general any fix to the desynching system would be really useful. A fix to the AP burst “clone” glitch would be really helpful too. Offline this can help you pressure your opponent and potentially punish their landing, but online it’s an instant reset to neutral which makes everything a bit slower. Plus the teleporting is just unfair and looks terrible; to have Parappa falling down, then suddenly using a semi-visible Air F+Triangle and making you eat an AP burst is pretty annoying for example.
Oh sorry for the double post but I must ask, can anything be done about the way host advantage affects Kat and Isaac’s debris and Level 1 super respectively?
Kat’s debris becomes a lot slower when she does not have the host connection, to the point where it doesn’t work at all if you’re trying to connect to someone really far away. I feel like this should be fixable because when Kat was first released, this issue didn’t occur. Debris worked properly whether she was hosting or not.
Isaac’s Level 1 super also does not work properly off host. Sometimes he will jerk around before being able to aim, sometimes he will aim in the opposite direction first, and sometimes the cursor will not appear at all which often renders the super useless. It seems that this one is more dependent on how good the host’s connection is, for example I can play with Deven3000 (US-UK connection) and have my Level 1 work perfectly when he hosts because his internet is very good. Can anything be done about the Kat/Isaac problems? As I said I really hope the Kat one is fixable because it was added in patch 1.10, her debris used to work perfectly.
Yeah, i’m not surprised that Toro was the one who ended up with that turning glitch. His setup is a little weird because he’s a “mirrored” character. Certain things had to scripted differently with those guys to make sure they always face the camera.
I was just asking because people mentioned that it could be done with Jak, Raiden, and Ratchet. But i’m guessing that’s different?
Desync issues can be very hard to fix. Usually you’re trading off one thing for another, because obviously online play can never be perfect. Sometimes it’s a good trade, sometimes it’s a bad trade because you overlooked some unforeseen consequence.
Obviously it can always be better, but that’s like bug fixing. People will always find more bugs and the only way to fix them all is to make patches forever.
Anyway i have no idea about Kat and Isaac. I’d have to take a look at how those moves are set up. Sometimes it’s an easy fix, sometimes it’s a complicated mess, and sometimes it’s a core system flaw. When it comes to online behavior, i can’t really predict which it’ll be either.
And testing stuff in online games is much harder than in offline games because you can’t frame-step in online games. It causes the machines to disconnect, plus it’s not an accurate simulation of packets being sent/received in real time.
Oh okay, that’s pretty interesting. I wonder who else is a mirrored character? I’m guessing Fat Princess?
I’ve never seen or heard of it being done with Jak. Ratchet can activate his Level 1 in one direction then turn and have it firing in the other direction but I’ve never seen it done, only heard of it. Raiden can turn his Level 1 around umpteen times until the hitbox comes out but it’s just a visual thing, it doesn’t cause slowdown or anything nasty like that.
@Maj
Hello Maj. I haven’t been here in a while & had to make a new account, since I lost my password. I have some new questions regarding Jak. About his Spinkick/N1.. can’t believe I never asked these before, but…
1. Why was the his Spinkick designed in this game to be a consecutive-hitting move that builds all it’s AP/30AP through the 4 hits? Why, instead, was it not designed & *balanced* in the All-Stars world as a single spin (like in his games)? In my personal and probably stupid opinion, I can’t help but think that the design of his spinkick in this game was inspired from Crash Bandicoot’s Spin attack, especially since he didn’t make it in the game.. and.. is actually the predecessor to Jak’s character & franchise.
2. For buffing and balancing purposes, can his grounded spinkick mechanic/animation be changed to cause 1 spin that gets him 30AP? Keep in mind his start up and recovery will still remain the same however. Now i’m going to have to bring up this point before I discuss the air version of this move in PSASBR. In his games we both know that the aerial version of this move acted as some sort of extended hovering move. So I was thinking for the air version that it would hypothetically remain the the way it is now for *balance* and to reference it’s unique hovering feature *which is present in both games* ofc. Obviously making the air version gain 30AP per hit would be greatly OP, so the only option for the air version is to keep it the way it is now which is gaining all it’s AP (30 max) through consecutive hits. And I don’t see a problem with this 50% change, because this mechanic is present in this game with multiple characters who have grounded and aerial versions of a move greatly different from each other.
bc1910: The only mirrored characters are Parappa, Sackboy, and Toro. Basically a mirrored character is one who doesn’t turn 180° when facing the opposite direction. There are a few mirrored supers like Jak’s lvl1 super and Zeus’ lvl2 super explosion, but that’s a whole different (and much simpler) thing than a character being mirrored all the time.
LightSage: Haha that’s an interesting theory. I have no idea why Jak’s neutral Square hits multiple times. In fact i never really thought to question it. I just assumed it was done as a tribute to one of the Jak and Daxter games, or because someone thought it would look cooler this way.
Personally i don’t think it’s that big a deal. Jak has much bigger problems. I’d change at least half a dozen other moves before i bothered changing his neutral Square, and making it single-hit seems weird to me anyway.
Like i mentioned before, making it hit once would make it so unsafe on block that every character in the game could punish Jak with a lvl1 super – maybe even Ratchet! And making it spin only once would require reanimating the whole thing. It’s not as simple as ending it after one spin. Daxter is way outstretched at the end of the first spin, so it would look pretty horrible to snap him back onto Jak’s shoulder.
I guess les didnt read what said about improving the spin kick to make it combo consistently for ap bursts.
Remove the the twitch reactions from daxter, and increase the ap gain of the solid hits done by jak to make 30 ap. Seems like the best way to go about it, no need to completely redesign and re animate the move. Just removing certain hits and increasing already existing ap values.
And maj, what do you think of jak’s wave concussor volume get being increased just enough to hit people stading directly under jak and in between him and the blast?
Cause after patch 1.10, it annoyed me to no end how people could stand infront of jak and not get hit by the air wave concussor by stabding between him and the blast. ( basically standing in a thin space that is the same length as the morph gun) its the most ridiculous thing ive seen for an aoe attack.
Oh one more thing, why is the wave concussor(an aoe weapon) treated as a projectile that can be reflected? Reflected like the blaster rounds by sack boys bounce pad, slys barrel, nariko’s counter etc.
@Maj
I don’t think it’s a big deal either. This actually isn’t a change that I recommend as urgent. I just wanted an answer on why it’s design is the way it is and if it “could” be altered to cause 1 spin. That goes for you to @Khknight.
Since you said making it 1 hit would make it so unsafe on block then why not just decrease recovery or decrease recovery on block? And I knew it would have to be re-animated, which applies to Daxter as well. The good thing about the hypothetical change would be that Daxter can still play his little twitch reaction part in the Spinkick, so nothing essential would be lost but the 4 hit mechanic.
Ok now as for some actual changes that I’ve stuck with for several months now (since the Spinkick “was an old idea” that I simply just wanted an answer to for it’s design and if it was possible to re-animate it without some super technical problems).. Jak’s grabs. Between these 2 changes.. which IYO would you think is better off for Jak and/or easier to design/implement-
Up grab’s reaction being altered to cause a full launch reaction for combo potential (which wouldn’t lead into any AP burst mid-screen even with hypothetical AP buffs)?
Or
Up grab being cancel-able so that Jak can follow up for combo potential (which again doesn’t lead into any ap burst mid-screen even with hypothetical ap buffs. Fat Princess’ up grab features jump cancel, which gives her combo potential, so that’s where I got the idea from)?
Fact: Jak is the only gun based character in the game without a combo off grab, so that’s just a little fact I considered when I developed 2 alternative ways Jak can combo off grab up grab (only).
One additional question pertaining to grabs. What’s up with Daxter’s arm extending out but having no shared hitbox with Jak’s arm/hand? Was Daxter’s arm originally going to be designed to share Jak’s hitbox, because that’s what it seems like, and it looks very weird and possible to implement. It’d be similar to Ratchet’s suck canon except it wouldn’t go as far obviously.
*Typo on Daxter causing twitch reaction. I meant light reaction since he causes a light reaction.*
@khknight
About the Spinkick. It’s actually inconsistent, now, because of the stealth nerf it got through one of the middle patches. I remember noticing this change instantly. It’s hitbox got nerfed. I even deleted the game data months back of PSASBR to re-access all of Jak’s original move to re-experience their debut aspects.
IMO the SPK need it’s old status restored, so Jak can gain back his consistent wall bounce combos and AP burst. The nerf made his already reliant on walls AP burst more difficult due to the consistency it lost. IMO this was an unnecessary nerf as the old Spinkick was still a move that gained all it’s AP through 4 hits, didn’t have a fast start up like Sly’s S2, was mostly used as a single move and was one of Jak’s few, if not only, moves with some priority. So the SPK hurt him plentiful.. equal to the (hurt) level of the Blaster nerf.
khknight: I wouldn’t have a problem with enlarging Jak’s D+Circle hit volume just enough to solve that specific issue. Although i don’t think it’s that huge a deal because even if a real player happens to be in that exact safe spot, they never stand still long enough to avoid getting hit.
I didn’t know it could be reflected but then again lots of random stuff can be reflected. It’s not so bad except for Sly’s barrel, which is its own separate problem.
LightSage: Neither Jak’s hand nor Daxter’s hand have anything to do with the active throw volume. Those are defined explicitly. Daxter reaches out because someone (probably the animator) thought it would be funny. If the throw range was stretched out to Daxter’s hand, it would be ridiculous.
Also the Up Throw animation makes it hard to create followups that would look decent. It’s got a very particular motion arc to it that can’t be interrupted too early without looking wonky, but a late double jump cancel wouldn’t give him much combo potential. There are probably a couple decent alternatives out there waiting to be found, but it’s trickier than it sounds.
@maj
Could you tell me what about jak requires to most priority in terms of change, in your opinion?
I ask cause you always take about which is a bigger deal and whats not and what needs more immediate attention.
Try to make your answer as specific and detailed as you can.
Sorry sir, i’m not really interested in doing that. But i can tell you generally that Jak’s main problem is that his play style is caught in a weird middle ground. He has above average zoning tools but isn’t much of a threat up close. That works fine in FFA, but falls flat in 1v1. I assume that’s mostly what you guys are complaining about.
So there are two solutions. You can either buff his ranged tools (F+Triangle, neutral Triangle, F+Circle) to make him a long-range zoning terror, or you can nerf them a little further and give him an actual AP burst combo from D+Circle. Personally i’d love to try the first solution, but unfortunately that would make him absurdly overpowered in FFA and not much fun to play against. So the second solution is probably the right answer, and it’s pretty easy to do.
I don’t think Jak needs a strong combo from throw, but being able to generate an extra 30 AP might be worth looking into. Anyway the real problem with his throws is that his whiff animation is longer than it should be. It just needs to be sped up a bit, which is pretty straightforward for a move like that.
Think of it this way: Every time Jak lands a throw, you have to get through a wall of projectiles to reach him again. It’s like Guile getting a free blocked Sonic Boom after every throw. You have to factor in that extra AP. Jak gets like 2-3 chances at block damage after every eject. Who can punish Jak from maximum F+Triangle range? Or even neutral Triangle range?
And i know you guys wish he had a lvl1 confirm, but it isn’t necessary. Jak already has good lvl2 confirms and a solid lvl3 super. The characters who currently dominate because of lvl1 confirms should get nerfed instead.