As some of you may have heard, i’ve been working on a PASBR balance patch with the extremely talented crew at Santa Monica Studio. In implementing these changes and prioritizing bugs to fix, we incorporated as much of the community’s feedback as possible.
Hopefully the end result is a more fun and balanced experience for the entire roster. Without further ado, here is the complete changelist for v1.12 of PlayStation All-Stars Battle Royale!
General Changes
• Isaac’s alternate “Engineering R.I.G.” costume and Zeus’ alternate “Young Zeus” costume have been unlocked.
• Every character’s throw attempts have been standardized to 9 startup frames, 3 active frames, and 18 recovery frames, with the exception of Isaac, Kat, and Ratchet.
• The minimum effective range of throws has been increased to 1 meter (previously 0.75m) for all characters except Parappa, Sackboy, and Toro.
• In online matches, jumping out of an opponent’s throw attempt is now resolved through the throw clash system.
• Every character’s air dodge has been standardized to 27 invincible frames followed by 9 vulnerable frames (previously 29 invincible plus 7 vulnerable).
• Every character’s directional rolls have been standardized to 18 invincible frames followed by 16 vulnerable frames, with the exception of Fat Princess, Spike, and Zeus.
• Characters can no longer perform actions for 3 frames after landing from air idle.
• Characters can no longer double jump during down tech.
• Landing during down tech or down tech canceled into air dodge now triggers the same recovery as landing during an attack.
• Getting hit in the air no longer renews a character’s double jump ability.
• All timed transformation Level 2 Supers can now be ended manually by pressing L2.
• The AP eject formula has been refined to drain a higher percentage of AP orbs at low levels and a lower percentage of AP orbs at high levels. Heavy damage is calculated as follows:
0.0667 × (AP – 150) + 50,
0.1333 × AP,
if 150 < AP < 600
if AP ≥ 600
◦ Medium damage is simply 67% of the Heavy value, and Light is simply 33% of Heavy.
◦ (Previously, AP eject amounts were calculated using fixed percentages: 3/5/10% for items and 10/12.5/15% for throws.)
• Throws have been grouped into two general categories:
◦ Throws that cause eject or flatten reactions eject Heavy amounts of AP orbs.
◦ Throws which act as combo starters eject Light amounts of AP orbs.
◦ Jak’s Up Throw and Sweet Tooth’s Up Throw eject Medium amounts of AP orbs.
• Throws, items, level hazards, and other AP eject attacks now produce 50% more orbs during 2X AP Overtime, 100% more orbs during 3X AP Overtime, and 150% more orbs during 4X AP Overtime. AP multipliers no longer increase the value of individual orbs.
• Explosion radii of all mines have been standardized to 0.375 meters, explosion durations have been standardized to 8 frames, and maximum lifetimes have been standardized to 5 seconds.
• Double-tapping L2 now causes characters to eject 50 AP as orbs while taunting.
• All character-specific combo tutorials have been revised in light of the following changes.
Big Daddy
• Air F+Square armor amount has been increased to 21 AP (previously 11).
• U+Circle recovery has been reduced by 2 frames.
• D+Circle and air D+Circle ice mine duration has been increased to 150 frames (previously 96 ground and 114 air).
• Forward Throw and Up Throw recoveries have been reduced by 7 frames.
• Up Throw can now be canceled into U+Circle.
• Level 2 Super no longer allows rolling or air dodging, no longer remains invincible during recovery, and duration has been shortened to 6.5 seconds (previously 7 sec).
• Big Daddy’s reaction volume has been extended slightly further downward during common launch reactions.
Cole MacGrath
• Second air neutral Square hit volume has been enlarged by 25%.
• F+Circle recovery has been increased to 23 frames (previously 20).
• Air U+Circle ice platform is now destroyed when interrupted during startup.
• Air D+Circle recovery has been increased to 27 frames (previously 24).
• Level 1 Super hit volume has been lowered to 1 meter above ground (previously 2.25m).
Dante
• Second neutral Square moves slightly further forward to prevent whiffing after the first neutral Square connects at maximum range.
• Third neutral Square now generates 15 AP (previously 10).
• Successful neutral Circle and air neutral Circle counters can be canceled into Triangle attacks.
• Air neutral Circle hit volume now covers the area slightly below Dante.
• U+Circle and air U+Circle now generate AP evenly across all hits and final hit volume has been enlarged by 17%.
• D+Circle projectile durability has been increased to 15 AP (previously 5) and air D+Circle projectile durability has been increased to 10 AP (previously 5).
• Level 1 Super startup has been increased to 35 frames (previously 30).
• Level 1 Super can be canceled into Triangle attacks for 15 frames after the fireball is thrown.
• Level 2 Super can turn around properly during the first 5 frames of activation and no longer remains invincible during recovery.
Nathan Drake
• U+Square and air U+Square explosion timers have been reduced to 2 seconds (previously 2.5 sec).
• Neutral Triangle -> D+Circle now extends the initiation period of Drake’s cover wall to 25 frames (normally 20).
• Up Throw recovery has been reduced by 13 frames, and Drake can jump an additional 10 frames prior.
Emmett Graves
• Third U+Square recovery has been reduced to 33 frames (previously 36).
• Kinetic Rifle F+Triangle now generates 5 AP per shot (previously 3+3+4).
• MAW Launcher neutral Triangle recovery has been increased to 29 frames (previously 27), increasing the total duration to 42 frames (previously 40).
• Union Shotgun neutral Triangle recovery has been increased to 32 frames (previously 28), increasing the total duration to 42 frames (previously 40).
• Union Shotgun F+Triangle, air F+Triangle, U+Triangle, air U+Triangle, D+Triangle, and air D+Triangle active periods have been extended to 3 frames (previously 1).
• Union Shotgun air D+Triangle recovery has been reduced by 20 frames to match air F+Triangle and air U+Triangle.
• MAW Launcher and Union Shotgun discard timing has been standardized, in many cases occurring 3-6 frames earlier.
• Ground weapon discard animation can now be canceled into R1 bunker interact and landing during air weapon discard no longer triggers air attack landing state.
• Forward Throw recovery has been reduced by 7 frames.
• Level 2 Super startup has been reduced to 1 frame (previously 4).
Evil Cole
• Second air neutral Square hit volume has been enlarged by 25%.
• Fully charged neutral Circle and air neutral Circle punch startup has been increased to 13 frames (previously 10). (All other versions remain unchanged at 12 frames startup from idle or 6 frames startup from charge windup.)
• Level 1 Super startup has been increased to 23 frames (previously 20).
Fat Princess
• Air neutral Square startup has been increased to 11 frames (previously 8).
• D+Square recovery has been reduced by 1 frame and reverse swing now causes a light reaction.
• U+Triangle now remains on the ground for the first 10 frames of startup.
• Neutral Circle, air neutral Circle, U+Circle, and air U+Circle explosion radius has been reduced to 1.25 meters (previously 1.75m) and explosion duration has been reduced to 8 frames (previously 14).
• D+Circle and air D+Circle explosion duration has been increased to 5 frames (previously 2).
• Up Throw recovery has been reduced by 2 frames.
• Directional rolls have been shortened to 18 invincible frames followed by 19 vulnerable frames (previously 18 invincible plus 22 vulnerable).
• Level 1 Super can no longer be performed while an assist is on screen.
• Level 2 Super activation period has been reduced by 2 frames and duration has been shortened to 6 seconds (previously 7 sec).
• Level 2 Super ground attack can now turn around during the first 3 frames of startup.
Heihachi Mishima
• Air neutral Square now generates 20 AP (previously 15) and the stagger kneel reaction caused by the second hit has been shortened to 40 frames (normally 50).
• Air D+Square now generates 20 AP (previously 15), causes a slam-down bounce reaction, and hit volume has been extended 0.5 meters beyond Heihachi’s fist.
• F+Triangle follow-up hit volume has been extended 0.25 meters downward to hit short characters consistently.
• U+Triangle recovery has been increased by 3 frames, making it -7 on block.
• D+Circle -> Square becomes a guard crush attack when performed with full D+Circle Raijin charge.
Isaac Clarke
• Neutral Square now generates 5 AP per shot (previously 10) and recovery time has been standardized across all states.
• F+Triangle, air F+Triangle, U+Triangle, air U+Triangle, and air D+Triangle reaction lengths have been standardized.
• F+Circle recovery has been increased to 20 frames (previously 11) and air F+Circle now begins descending after 40 frames (previously 32).
• F+Circle can now be canceled into F+Triangle after a successful hit.
• F+Circle and air F+Circle blade now reflects off all walls and level boundaries.
• Throw attempt timing has been readjusted to 9 startup frames, 3 active frames, and 23 recovery frames. (Projectile sensor stays active from frame 4 to frame 20.)
• Level 1 Super cost has been increased to 150 AP (previously 125).
• Level 1 Super startup has been increased to 40 frames (previously 35).
• Level 2 Super cost has been increased to 400 AP (previously 325).
• Level 2 Super startup has been increased to 20 frames (previously 14).
• Level 3 Super duration has been shortened to 11 seconds (previously 12 sec).
Jak and Daxter
• Neutral Square and air neutral Square now generate 35 AP (previously 30), with Jak’s primary strikes gaining 30 AP while Daxter’s strikes gain 5 AP (previously 26+4).
• F+Square now generates 10 AP (previously 5), recovery has been reduced to 29 frames (previously 31), and can be canceled into U+Circle.
• Air F+Square -> Square timing has been readjusted, punch hit volume has been enlarged by 50%, and turning is enabled during the first 3 frames of punch startup.
• U+Square now remains on the ground for the first 14 frames of startup, and can be moved slightly further forward during the first 5 frames of startup.
• Air U+Square can now be canceled into air neutral Square and air F+Square with similar timing to ground U+Square, but only after a successful hit.
• F+Triangle now generates 5 AP per shot (previously 6).
• U+Triangle and air U+Triangle now generate 10 AP (previously 10), startup has been reduced to 20 frames (previously 24), and explosion radius has been reduced to 1.5 meters (previously 1.65m).
• Neutral Circle and air neutral Circle drone durability has been increased to 11 AP (previously 1), and the drone now bounces off walls and level bounds instead of exploding on contact.
• U+Circle now generates 10 AP (previously 5).
• D+Circle and air D+Circle projectiles can no longer be reflected or absorbed, and uncharged explosion hit volumes have been enlarged by 20%.
• Forward Throw and Down Throw recoveries have been reduced by 7 frames.
• Up Throw can now be canceled into air F+Square.
Kat
• Neutral Square recovery has been increased by 2 frames, making it -5 on block.
• Second neutral Square recovery has been increased by 6 frames, making it -9 on block.
• Third neutral Square recovery has been increased by 9 frames, making it -15 on block.
• U+Square recovery has been increased by 2 frames, making it -20 on block.
• Neutral Triangle now has 10 additional frames of recovery when it doesn’t register a successful hit, making it -15 on block.
• D+Triangle -> Square recovery has been increased by 5 frames, making it -12 on block.
• D+Triangle no longer retains respawn invincibility.
• Air neutral Circle debris summon now begins descending after 10 frames (previously 65).
• Gravity Shift air dash and wall stand dismount can no longer be canceled into air dodge.
• Wall stand duration has been reduced to 2 seconds (previously 4).
• Level 1 Super can no longer be performed during neutral Circle debris heave cooldown.
Kratos
• Neutral Square recovery has been increased by 1 frame, making it -5 on block. (Second neutral Square recovery remains unchanged at -10 on block.)
• Third neutral Square now generates 25 AP (previously 30) and recovery has been increased by 9 frames, making it -18 on block.
• Air neutral Square and air F+Square now require a successful hit to be canceled into double jump.
• Third air neutral Square now generates 25 AP (previously 30).
• U+Square recovery has been increased by 3 frames, making it -12 on block.
• D+Square recovery has been increased by 6 frames, making it -12 on block. (Second D+Square recovery remains unchanged at -10 on block.)
• Neutral Triangle recovery has been increased by 11 frames, making it -12 on block.
• D+Triangle recovery has been reduced by 10 frames to match the air version, making it -23 on block.
Nariko
• After neutral Square Key Pose, secondary neutral Square sequence now generates 30 AP total and consistently causes a stagger kneel reaction.
• Third air neutral Square now generates 25 AP (previously 30).
• After F+Square Key Pose, secondary F+Square sequence opener recovery has been reduced to 48 frames (previously 51).
• Square attack Key Poses can now be canceled into F+Triangle.
• Air U+Triangle can now be canceled into air attacks on frame 42 (previously 43).
• D+Triangle now generates 10 AP (previously 20) and combos reliably into neutral Square from maximum range.
• Air D+Triangle now causes a mini-launch lift reaction against both grounded and airborne opponents, but can only be performed once per jump.
• U+Circle recovery has been reduced to 39 frames (previously 47).
• Forward Throw now causes a mini-launch lift reaction and can be canceled into U+Triangle.
• Forward Throw and Up Throw commands have been swapped to match the reactions they cause more intuitively.
• Level 1 Super cost has been reduced to 125 AP (previously 150).
• Level 2 Super cost has been increased to 400 AP (previously 325).
• Level 2 Super activation attack startup has been increased to 15 frames (previously 2).
• Level 2 Super initial hit volume length has been reduced to 5 meters (previously 6m) and shifted slightly forward, so most of the reduction affects the area behind Nariko.
• Level 2 Super activation attack now causes a full launch reaction.
• Level 3 Super duration has been shortened to 14 seconds (previously 15 sec).
Parappa
• Neutral Square sequence now generates 40 AP total (previously 43).
• U+Square startup has been increased to 11 frames (previously 9).
• D+Square hit volume has been extended 0.25 meters forward to connect more consistently after neutral Square.
• D+Square can be canceled into F+Square 4 frames prior to normal recovery.
• F+Triangle recovery has been reduced by 5 frames, making it -7 on block.
Col. Mael Radec
• Neutral Square hit volume has been extended 0.25 meters downward to hit short characters more consistently.
• Second neutral Square hit volume has been enlarged by 40% and can now be canceled into D+Circle.
• Second air neutral Square hit volume has been enlarged by 50% and recovery has been reduced to 21 frames (previously 24).
• U+Square recovery has been reduced to 23 frames (previously 26).
• D+Square now generates 20 AP (previously 10) and causes a stagger drop reaction.
• Up Throw recovery has been reduced by 3 frames.
• Level 2 Super startup has been reduced to 25 frames (previously 30).
Raiden
• Fourth neutral Square and fifth air neutral Square now generate 25 AP (previously 30).
• Air D+Triangle landing can now be canceled into attacks after 5 frames, or blocking and jumping after 10 frames, but movement and supers are prohibited for the full 20 frames.
• Air neutral Circle counter now causes a mini-launch lift reaction.
• F+Circle -> B+Square now has a 5-frame cancel delay, and F+Circle can be canceled into D+Square with the same timing.
• Level 1 Super startup has been increased to 32 frames (previously 26) and recovery has been increased to 70 frames (previously 64).
• Level 1 Super no longer allows turning after the first 5 frames, but movement is enabled after Raiden begins spinning.
• Level 2 Super no longer allows blocking, rolling, or air dodging, no longer remains invincible during recovery, and duration has been shortened to 6.5 seconds (previously 7 sec).
• Level 2 Super activation EMP stun can be reduced from 3 seconds to 2 seconds by rapidly mashing inputs, and Circle attack stun can be similarly reduced from 1.5 seconds to 1 second.
Ratchet and Clank
• Air neutral Square, air F+Square, and air U+Square now require a successful hit to be canceled into double jump.
• U+Square startup has been reduced to 14 frames (previously 16).
• Air neutral Triangle regains fall gravity after 10 frames (previously 1) and recovery has been increased to 25 frames (previously 20).
Sackboy
• Neutral Triangle and air neutral Triangle serve now causes a mini-launch lift reaction with 14 frames of startup followed by 7 active frames, generating 10 AP. (Projectile startup remains unchanged at 40 frames.)
• Air D+Triangle checkpoint placement is permitted only when Sackboy has a double jump available.
• U+Circle and air U+Circle startup has been increased to 12 frames (previously 7) and bouncepad is now destroyed when interrupted during startup.
• Level 3 Super now begins with a 70-frame taunt to give the helpless bubbles a head start.
Sir Daniel
• Second neutral Square hit volume has been enlarged by 25% and can now be canceled into F+Square.
• Third neutral Square now generates 25 AP (previously 20).
• Shielded F+Square now gains 21 AP of armor after 8 frames of startup, lasting until the quick sword thrust begins or until the fully charged sword thrust’s active period ends.
• D+Square now generates 20 AP per hit (previously 10) during the first spin.
• Air D+Square startup has been reduced to 21 frames (previously 26).
• F+Triangle causes less pushback on impact without the Golden Shield, allowing Sir Daniel to follow up with neutral Square midscreen.
• Shielded F+Triangle armor amount has been increased to 21 AP (previously 11) and turning is briefly enabled after a successful hit.
• D+Triangle startup has been reduced to 15 frames (previously 21).
• Air D+Triangle now activates a small hit volume near Sir Daniel’s feet after 31 frames of startup, causing a light reaction and generating 5 AP. The hammer smash hit volume has been extended 0.5 meters backward.
• F+Circle now causes a twitch reaction upon contact with opponents, generating an additional 5 AP.
• Up Throw recovery has been reduced by 10 frames.
• Down Throw recovery has been reduced by 5 frames.
• Level 1 Super cost has been reduced to 100 AP (previously 125).
• Level 2 Super now creates a 1 meter by 1 meter hit volume around the Chalice of Souls, active for 4 frames starting when the projectiles appear.
Sly Cooper
• Neutral Circle and air neutral Circle counter attack recovery has been increased by 4 frames, making it -2 on block.
• U+Circle now reflects projectiles during frames 9-24 while hopping into the barrel only, and air U+Circle reflects projectiles during frames 17-30 only.
• U+Circle barrel exit now requires a successful or blocked hit to be canceled into air attacks, double jump, and hover.
• D+Circle explosion now launches opponents 10% higher.
• Up Throw recovery has been reduced by 2 frames.
• L1 invisibility now reduces Sly’s movement speed by 25% and his transparency level decreases from 90% to 67% after 2 seconds.
• Level 1 Super no longer becomes invincible at any point during recovery (previously invincible during frames 34-57).
Spike
• Air F+Square charge requirement has been increased to 20 frames (previously 15).
• Charged U+Triangle and air U+Triangle now generate 30 AP (previously 20) and cause an eject tornado reaction.
• Neutral Circle now causes a stagger kneel reaction on the first hit, followed by a stagger drop reaction on the second hit. Quick dash recovery has been increased by 2 frames, making it -7 on block. Fully charged dash now generates 30 AP total (previously 25) and guard crushes while running forward.
• Air neutral Circle timing has been readjusted to combo properly and the first hit now generates 5 AP (previously 4).
• Up Throw now causes a full launch reaction and recovery has been increased by 2 frames.
• Directional rolls have been shortened to 18 invincible frames followed by 13 vulnerable frames.
Sweet Tooth
• Neutral Square can now be canceled into U+Square, and both neutral Square hit volumes have been enlarged slightly to juggle more consistently after U+Square.
• U+Square hit volumes have been extended 0.1 meters forward.
• D+Square secondary gust now generates 20 AP (previously 10) and causes a crumple reaction to match the initial stomp.
• Air D+Square recovery has been reduced by 1 frame, making it -4 on block.
• Air neutral Triangle now allows movement while spinning, similar to the ground version.
• F+Triangle hit volume has been extended 0.25 meters forward during its 3rd and 4th active frames.
• Air D+Triangle hit volume has been extended 0.25 meters backward to cover the entire muzzle flash.
• F+Circle and air F+Circle molotov bottles now generate 10 AP (previously 5) from a direct hit.
• Forward Throw recovery has been reduced by 5 frames.
• Up Throw can now be canceled into Level 2 Super.
• Level 2 Super missile maximum speed has been increased by 50% and turning control has been improved.
Toro Inoue
• Torobi neutral Triangle and air neutral Triangle now generate 20 AP (previously 26 and 36) and can be canceled into double jump after a successful hit.
• Torobi air F+Triangle final hit volume has been enlarged by 25%.
• Oni F+Triangle can now be canceled into Level 2 Super upon landing from the first spin.
• Oni air D+Triangle landing can now be canceled into block 5 frames prior to normal recovery.
• Forward Throw and Up Throw recoveries have been reduced by 3 frames.
Zeus
• Air U+Square hit volume has been extended 0.5 meters downward and recovery has been reduced to 15 frames (previously 19).
• Charged neutral Triangle hit volume thickness has been doubled to hit short characters consistently.
• D+Circle and air D+Circle hit volumes have been extended further downward to cover Zeus’ entire body, similar to their charged versions.
• Charged D+Circle lightning bolt now generates 20 AP (previously 10).
• Forward Throw recovery has been reduced by 9 frames.
• Up Throw now causes a slam-down bounce reaction and recovery has been reduced by 5 frames.
• Down Throw recovery has been reduced by 6 frames.
• Directional rolls have been adjusted to 21 invincible frames followed by 13 vulnerable frames. (Previously Zeus was able to remain completely invincible while evading.)
Items
• Leech Beam now siphons 100 AP (previously 140) in 4 AP increments (previously 5).
• Fusion Bomb bouncing Nitroballs now eject Medium amounts of AP orbs (previously Light).
Miscellaneous Bug Fixes
• Online synchronization after Infinite Avoidance state has been improved.
• PS Vita version now ignores D-Pad inputs while holding opposite directions on the L-Stick and D-Pad, to match PS3 version behavior.
• Environment Stun reactions can no longer be thrown, which prevents inescapable Ratchet Suck Cannon loops on certain stages.
• Cole’s AP gain timing during neutral Triangle Overload has been corrected.
• Dante can no longer turn around mid-dash when F+Circle carries him off a ledge.
• Dante’s F+Circle and air F+Circle can now be canceled into B+Square and air B+Square, respectively.
• Drake’s Up Throw no longer counts toward the Infinite Avoidance limit.
• Drake’s lvl3 super Descendants can no longer be thrown when dizzy.
• Emmett’s air U+Circle and air D+Circle supply bunkers no longer fail to appear if summoned while landing.
• Emmett can no longer interact with supply bunkers while throwing, being thrown, or using Circle button moves. However, Square and Triangle attacks can still be canceled by pressing R1 (near supply bunkers).
• Emmett and Kat’s block stun durations have been standardized to 15 frames to match the rest of the cast.
• Isaac’s lvl1 super reticule stability has been greatly improved in online games.
• Isaac and Raiden’s air attack landing states have been standardized, preventing them from performing supers for 11 frames (previously 5).
• Jak’s U+Square now cancels into air F+Square with consistent timing in both directions.
• Jak’s air Triangle and air Circle attacks now transition properly to corresponding ground states when used immediately before landing.
• Jak’s charged D+Circle is now considered airborne 5 frames after the button is released.
• Jak can now use items correctly after pickup during Blue Mod gun stance.
• Jak now reacts properly to the Sonic Rift item and his own lvl2 super.
• Jak’s lvl2 super explosion hit volume has been extended 0.25 meters downward to reach ground level and clear out mines.
• Jak, Parappa, and Sir Daniel no longer negate pushback from multi-hit attacks while in block stun reaction.
• Kat’s neutral Circle and air neutral Circle debris online desync issues have been greatly reduced.
• Kat can now perform backward diagonal air dashes without turning around beforehand.
• Kat decelerates properly upon landing from air dashes while attacking or holding items.
• Kat’s crumple forward reaction timing has been standardized.
• Nariko’s neutral Circle and air neutral Circle now register all of their AP on the last hit, to trigger AP burst more consistently online.
• Nariko’s lvl2 super activation and cannon spin attacks can no longer be blocked.
• Nariko can no longer perform air attacks after her lvl3 super timer expires.
• Parappa and Raiden’s lvl2 supers are no longer considered grounded during air recovery.
• Ratchet’s F+Square and air F+Square wrench no longer hits twice on the way back.
• Ratchet’s air neutral Triangle now transitions properly to corresponding ground states.
• Ratchet’s air attack landing state has been standardized. (Previously Ratchet was able to attack or block immediately upon landing after using air Triangle and air Circle attacks.)
• Sackboy’s neutral Triangle and air neutral Triangle projectiles no longer cause a twitch reaction on impact (previously generating an additional undocumented 10 AP).
• Sackboy can no longer perform ground actions in mid-air during air F+Circle recovery.
• Sly’s air neutral Circle is now considered airborne during recovery.
• Toro’s air stance changes no longer allow canceling into Torobi air neutral Triangle, Oni air F+Triangle, and Oni air U+Triangle multiple times per jump.
• Toro can no longer turn around more than once during lvl1 super and lvl2 super startup.
• Zeus’ D+Circle and air D+Circle startup has been readjusted to always activate hit volumes and lightning bolts, even if the Circle button is released after 1 frame.
• Zeus’ lvl3 super activation now destroys existing Sackboy D+Triangle checkpoints.
• Boots of Hermes, Killer Bees, Leech Beam, and Razor Claws buffs are no longer removed by Infinite Avoidance state.
• Minor VFX timing fixes for Big Daddy’s air Square attacks, Big Daddy’s lvl2 super, Cole’s U+Circle, Dante’s lvl2 super, Emmett’s air Square attacks, Fat Princess’ charged neutral Square, Isaac’s neutral Square, Isaac’s item-equipped double jump, Jak’s lvl2 super, Kat’s U+Circle, Raiden’s air F+Triangle, Raiden’s D+Circle, Ratchet’s lvl1 super, Sir Daniel’s F+Square, Spike’s lvl1 super, Zeus’ D+Circle, LR-3 Railgun aim cancellation, and Murder of Crows projectile.
I just want to thank Santa Monica Studio for giving me the opportunity to work on this game once again. It was truly an awesome experience.
I especially want to thank Chad Cox, Nathan Gary, Seth Killian, and Gavin Dodd. And a huge thanks to Bamsama and ProjectSeoul for coming in multiple times to help us playtest these balance changes!
Okay, i’m sure you guys have some questions, and i’d love to answer them. But i just have to say three things first:
1. I don’t represent Sony or Santa Monica Studio in any capacity whatsoever. I’m not a full-time employee of the studio and i can’t predict the future. I’m just me, and the only opinions i have are my own.
2. If there are a lot of questions, it might take me a long time to respond to all of them. Please be patient.
3. I’m going to be active on the official PlayStation forums for the next couple weeks. If you have a question for me about PASBR, please ask there first.
With that said, i personally put a LOT of effort into this patch, so i really hope you guys like the outcome. It goes without saying, i’d love to hear what you all think – so please let me know!
Oops, posted in the wrong thread. Don’t know how that happened haha. I guess I’ll just post the same thing.
I’ll kick things off by saying I think Raiden is absolutely perfect, and I love his changes. Couldn’t have done better myself. Thanks a lot for all your hard work!
So the truth finally comes out, know we know why you were so vocal with us for over a year even after sb closed. It wasnt just your passion for the game after, sneaky devil maj.
Overall, i really love the changes made in the bunch. The game is near perfect, my only gripes are as followed…
Jak’s wave concussor did not receive the 20% volume increase as promised in the patch. Another empty promise like the gyro burster bouncing off walls mention in the last patcg notes.
The beam reflexor was extremely negatively affected by the general changes made to landing lag.
Its near impossible to combo with and too slow as a zoning tool. This weapon was already very situational since launch, now its completely worthless due to its impracticality in competive and even casual play. Its a dead move that shouldn’t be bothered with touching.
The needle laser didnt tet its anti air potential back despite it being one of the biggest requests from jak mains. Tho i can live with if the the two moves mentioned above gets addressed in a post patch hotfix.
The blaster got a pointless ap nerf for seemingly no reason. If theres one question i’d like to hear you answer, its why? Why bother nerfing it?
Drakes broken ak and slide spam is still running rampant. I think a majority of the playerbase was shocked to see these two moves not touched in any way.
Kratos barely got nerfed once again, no matter how much we ask for a start up and recovery nerf to his attacks. Seems like SSM wont stop playing favorites.
Minus all that, i really freaking love this patch. I really do, good job to everyone at ssm and you.
bc1910: Thank you sir! (And you’re very welcome.)
khknight: Well, not that sneaky. I’ve only been working on the patch for about 3-4 months, from mid-December through March. I can’t speak for the timeline before December, but i remember SMS mentioned running into some technical hurdles early on.
Anyway i was vocal because you guys were generally enthusiastic, supportive, and asked interesting questions. For most of that time, i didn’t think i’d be involved with the patch at all.
Once i did start working on it, i didn’t know if it was okay to talk about it during development. (When in doubt, it’s usually better to err on the side of not getting sued by Sony.)
Regarding Jak, D+Circle definitely did receive that 20% hit volume increase. It’s just not that noticeable. Basically all it means is that it whiffs less often at point blank range. Otherwise i didn’t see a reason to buff its reach beyond addressing that specific complaint.
My thinking behind the Jak changes was that giving him a reliable midscreen AP burst combo would be more fun than slightly buffing his range tools. Everyone asked for F+Triangle and D+Triangle buffs, but no one had any truly exciting ideas for either move.
I could’ve easily made them both generate 30 AP and eject, but people hated playing against Jak back when F+Triangle caused eject roll. So i made the decision to go in the opposite direction and improve his combo potential instead. I made sure he could AP burst from his most common combo starter, which is of course air D+Circle.
I actually had a lot of fun tuning these changes, but they led to another problem. If Jak got within 50 AP from a lvl3 super, he could simply run away and use F+Triangle to build the rest. Having access to that “plan B” is the inherent advantage of projectile zoners.
That’s why i felt it was necessary to tweak F+Triangle slightly and avoid buffing D+Triangle. And i still think the original “pseudo-anti-air” version of F+Circle looked terrible, so i’m definitely the wrong guy to talk to if you want that changed back.
I’ll admit that Drake’s D+Square and neutral Triangle are pretty spammy, but it’s not like he has a ton of other dominant tools. He doesn’t have much for throw combos, and his lvl1 super is pretty unreliable for reads and confirms.
Kratos may still be extremely viable, but literally all of his primary pokes received significant added recovery. I don’t know what more i could’ve done without making him borderline unplayable.
Trust me, it has nothing to do with SSM playing favorites. People like to complain that Sackboy has been nerfed in every patch, but they really should be saying that about Kratos. And for what it’s worth, i think it’s a good thing that he remains competitively viable.
Enlarging the wave concussor volume so it misses less at point blank is defintly what jak needed.
Except it still misses at point blank,you can still stand between jak and the wave concussor blast. Which tells me thst the change didnt make it into the patch or the 20% increase of an already small hit box really did nothing. I would of liked it to stretch far enough where it has good range in front but not reach behind jak. The biggest complaint with the wc originally was that it could hit people from behind after all.
And the beam reflexor, havent you noticed how incredibly slow the air recovery it is now? When it was already slow to begin with. Jak mains and none jak mains a like are complaining that they cannot complete combo tutorial number 7 or 8 because the beam reflexor doesnt let you combo into dash punch.
I was onyl able to do it in a wall but the timing was still so tricky that its just worthless in any serious match.
Stealth nerfing jak’s beam reflexor, despite it being one of his weakest moves has actually made it a lot harder to land his dash punch combos and his kill confirms.
If jak could only have one move changed after this patch, its beam reflexor. This move cannot stay the way that it is now especially if the wave concussor if gonna be the go to combo starter for the dash punch combos. The wc hitbox is still too small to rely on, which is why we used it with the beam reflexor heavily to land dash punch combos easier.
I’m fairly sure Jak’s new kill confirm (Forward Square, Up Circle, Air Up Triangle, Level 1) was NOT intended. It seems to occur because of some kind of bug with Air Up Triangle and how it transitions back to the grounded state. So in that sense, we’re kind of lucky that the beam reflexor doesn’t combo into Forward Square reliably.
Yeah, people love to make a big fuss about Sackboy being nerfed in every patch, but that goes for a lot of characters. Off the top of my head you can say the same about Kratos, Fat Princess and Evil Cole.
Another character I really like the changes to is Isaac. A few people think he’s been overnerfed, and whilst I think that’s probably true for the plasma cutter I think he’s definitely still a strong, viable character. Plus, the plasma cutter kind of deserved it after all those gun loops. He retains more of his old combos than one might think, has a plethora of Level 2 confirms and some fantastic close range options in Air Down Triangle and Forward Triangle, they’re just not as highly rewarding as they were before. I think it’ll be a lot of more fun to play him in this patch.
khknight: I don’t know what you mean by stealth nerf. It’s listed right there under bug fixes, because what you’re referring to was a bug.
Jak’s air D+Triangle just didn’t go into proper landing recovery from certain heights, and now it does. It was okay when his AP gen was limited by his poor combo potential, but that’s no longer the case.
Anyway, he can combo air D+Circle directly into F+Square from just about any height. If it’s actually possible to connect air D+Circle so high that you can’t combo into F+Square, then i’d say you’re asking for too much in terms of a safe combo starter.
As for the range increase to D+Circle, let’s put it this way. He didn’t need that buff at all. I just thought it missed at point blank range slightly too often, and now it misses slightly less often. Honestly, it doesn’t even look like it should hit directly in front of him, so i don’t understand the complaint. It sounds like you want it to be Sir Daniel’s air D+Square, when it’s clearly meant to be Kratos’ air D+Circle (which misses at the same angles).
bc1910: You mean this Jak confirm, right? (Funny vid btw.) Hmm, i thought it might be possible, but it always seemed 1-2 frames away from connecting when i tested it.
How tight is that air U+Triangle timing? Is it character-specific? Since it’s not directly following another attack, you lose the 5-frame link buffer. So if it requires 1-frame precision then the timing would be truly 1 frame in this case.
I don’t why d-triangle had to lose it’s reliable combo and zoning potential. Cause again, was already very situational. Making it a little better wih a recovery buff and maybe a slight ap and range buff wouldnt hurt at all.
Hey Maj, I think that overall everything looks promising. I know some people are upset but everyone wants their character to be broken. Despite Jak’s overwhelming buffs people are still upset; thats just how it goes I suppose.
Just an update on things in case you were curious:
Fat Princess gained a lvl1 confirm by the 1 frame reduction on d+square recover, so she can do combos into her twinkle toes d+square level 1.
Good Cole somehow still has level 1 kill confirms with his tether air jab iceball loop and tether a.d3 still works so he kept a decent amount of KCs somehow haha.
Jak has the level 1 confirm as bc pointed out; as far as the timing it doesnt seem strict to me at all.
Drake is apparently 2nd best aside from Good Cole due to landing lag ( i know other playtesters wanted to keep AK virtually the same) but I have yet to fight one so I cant comment on that.
Isaac is in a good place, though itll take mains time to readjust I think everything done was for the best.
Kat is also a top tier as of now, however the nerfs were definitely efficient and it seems to making her actually viable.
Raiden seems to have some inescapable corner traps due to his lvl1s current speed but other than that he seems just right.
Dan has been well received by the mains Ive talked to thus far.
Radec seems to be very solid; just right where he needs to be which is awesome.
Sly apparently still has counter to lvl1 and lvl3 cost the same.
Spike players feel their character just isnt up to the caliber of others.
Apparently sackboy can still level 3 due to traps.
Kratos is still in a good place but definitely not overbearing anymore.
Thats pretty much whats going on at this point in the past 2 days. Anyways I do hope you are doing well and it was a pleasure working with you.
Dont get the wrong idea bam, i LOVE this new jak to death. I just dont understand already weak moves had to be nerfed. What did the nerfs accomplish, what would of been so bad about leaving them the sane! I just cant wrap my head aroubd it.
Also, the timing on jaks new kc is strict, try it yourself
its not; I used in tourney it is ridiculously easy. bc can attest to that himself.
I have a few questions if you don’t mind, Maj.
Regarding Dante, what’s the idea behind him being able to cancel his counter and level 1 into triangle moves?
Why was Isaac nerfed this hard, while Kat only got toned down “a little”? I don’t mind Isaacs changes at all, I think he’s still pretty good and totally underrated, but I don’t see why you wouldn’t nerf Kat more than him. Not saying she needs more nerfs, just wondering.
Spike. I heard somebody say you guys didn’t buff him “becouse he’s supposed to be played differently”? Is that true? If that’s the case, tell us how Spike should be played to compensate for him not really getting any necessary buffs.
Is there any use for Sackboys new neutral triangle reaction where he bounces the opponent up? Seems rather unnecessary, but still welcomed I guess.
Also, just wanted to say that I’m in love with Sweet Tooth. Great job on him, Maj and everyone else. Amazingly fun character.
Thank you for taking time to read all this, much appreciated.
@Maj
So Maj I see you worked on Jak :)
I have a few questions of course, but first I want to say.. Jak’s S2/Blaster did need a start up decrease. The AP nerf is tolerable & fair, especially with Emmett and Isaac’s counterparts having received the same related treatment. Drake’s AK and Ratchet’s pistol cause ejects, so it’s understandable why did they get the same treatment. But um.. if S2 is going to keep it’s current range and if Jak’s other moves have slow start ups then this ranged tool of his should have gotten an appropriate start up. Now the questions..
What does “Level Bound” mean via N3/Gyro Burster? (I could never figure it out what it actually meant).
Was Jak’s Lv2 2 suppose to be cancellable? (I know it’s not timed).
Regarding Jak’s Up-grab.. was there no other alternatives to make the combo more consistent as we talked about before? (Btw love this new change even though it’s barely consistent :))
I probably have more questions, but that’s it for now.
what’s up Maj, I just want to get an understanding on the Sackboy nerfs? It’s generally agreed upon that he didnt need anymore nerfs, just to his Level 3 and bouncepad. I understand the Level 3 taunt thing had to be done due to coding, but is there not something else that could have been done to not make it so bad?
Also, the checkpoint nerf that he received is absolutely unacceptable. The best way to fix this would have been to prevent Sackboy from jumping again after using it and placing it again. Now it’s a completely useless move, thanks.
He also did not get any buffs to compensate for this, except for the odd jelly buff which doesn’t make any sense ( and at 10 AP, its a horrible move. the properties should have been buffed or the AP to at LEAST 15. ) So, could you give me any insight to what the point of that “buff” was?
Last but not least, can we expect one more small balance patch to nerf some of the unintentional things such as the remaining Cole confirms, the ridiculous gain of Nariko air-to-air combos, Jak kill confirm, FP still KCing at 60 AP+, the list goes on. Our community would gladly make a small list of the remaining things to be addressed if we could know if we will be receiving any further support.
Where these left intentionally http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-H7YJ1hHJdM
also note the first combo gets 102 AP but doesn’t burst.
Another thing is downgrab > n2 links offline but online it just doesn’t
Hey Maj. Couple things.
1. Really happy with Jak’s buffs. There’s still a couple moves that could have been touched (Down Triangle in particular), but given the time contraints, I’m very happy. A nice BnB combo was definitely needed for him, and making the Jetboard connect more frequently, AND be comboable off of his Uppercut both really help.
2. Heard you guys were having trouble balancing Drake, particularly the Run n’ Gun. Heard that you guys wanted to add a +25 recovery to it, and the playtesters thought it was way too much, so you just scrapped it. My question is, why not reduce the range, or the AP gain? I mean, I’m not a programmer there, but given how frequently you guys changed the AP gain of characters moves over all the patches thus far, I’m surprised this was never considered as an easy option. Even cutting the rifle butt AP from 30 to 15 would have been a pretty significant reduction on the AP gain of the whole Run n’ Gun move, which nets almost 60 AP at the moment. I’m also surprised Drake’s ridiculous slide move was untouched. Just giving it negative frames on block would have helped, as Drake is nearly unpunishable when he’s spamming slides around your feet.
Should be about all from me. Like I said, happy with how Jak turned out, and none of my other mains (who were mostly lower tier before) got hurt, so overall, good balance patch. Seeing much more variety online now.
khknight: Sorry sir, i just disagree about Jak’s D+Triangle. It simply covers too much important space. People already complain about Ratchet’s D+Triangle, so buffing Jak’s version doesn’t make sense to me. Especially since you’re asking for easier combos into F+Square, which is quite powerful now. And i couldn’t leave it the same because people were asking for input bugs to be fixed, which required fixing the landing state.
Bamsama: Thanks for the rundown! Well, i can’t say that Jak’s new lvl1 confirm was intentional but i’m curious to see how it plays out. Unfortunately i didn’t catch any Jak players on stream in last week’s PASBR tournament at TRB. It’d be nice to see him in the mix.
Abbi: Dante can cancel neutral Circle into Triangles now because i wanted to make his counter more useful as anti-air. It requires good timing and reactions, plus that move is inherently risky to use, so i felt that a successful hit should generally allow a combo opportunity. His lvl1 super cancels into Triangles simply because i wanted to reduce its recovery slightly and that seemed like a fun/interesting way of doing it.
A lot of people seem to be making that Kat vs Isaac comparison, but i’d say Kat was nerfed pretty hard. She lost all of her lvl1 confirms and her reduced block stun, so she can’t punish nearly as much on reaction. Also her throw whiff animation is painfully long and she has no guard crush attacks, so blocking is pretty effective against her.
Spike didn’t change much because i felt he was roughly where he needed to be, once the top tier lost most of their lvl1 confirms. (I felt the same way about Heihachi.) Maybe Spike could’ve used one more buff, but it’s hard to tell when so few people play him. I do think he has quite a few tools though, so i feel that he’s a bit underrated.
Sackboy’s neutral Triangle launcher was Seth’s idea. He basically thought it’d be an interesting FFA/2v2 tool – hitting someone up close while throwing a projectile at the opponents behind them. We thought it’d be a fun addition that didn’t have much chance of becoming overpowered, so i implemented it.
And i’m glad you’re enjoying the new Sweet Tooth. He was a fun character to explore, and i always thought he had some interesting combo potential.
LightSage: Level bounds are the invisible boundaries that prevent characters from moving outside the levels. Most stages have solid walls that are usually placed slightly inside level bounds, but you run into level bounds when there are no walls. For example, both sides of Sandover or the top left side of Alden’s Tower.
Some collisions are handled differently depending on whether they touch walls or level bounds. A lot of projectiles bounce off walls, but not level bounds. And of course characters bounce off walls when they’re moving fast enough during reactions, but not level bounds.
Jak’s lvl2 super wasn’t supposed to be L2 cancelable because it isn’t mechanically a state change super. His appearance changes, but otherwise it’s a simple single-fire super.
I actually tried for a long time to make Jak’s Up Throw combo into air F+Square consistently, but there’s far too much variance between reaction volumes in PASBR’s roster. In most fighting games, the size difference between the biggest and smallest characters is like 15%. In PASBR, Toro and Sackboy are like half the size of Big Daddy and Sweet Tooth.
Anyway i enabled turning on Jak’s air F+Square followup specifically so he could perform both hits after Up Throw against every character in the game. I believe Ratchet is the only opponent who absolutely requires the followup to be performed in the opposite direction though.
crashbfan: Actually from what i saw, Sackboy’s guaranteed triple-kill lvl3 super was pretty much a universal concern. People were asking for all kinds of nerfs to make sure he couldn’t end the game as soon as he got a lvl3 super. He still gets two guaranteed kills, so i don’t really see the problem.
In fact, it seems that Sackboy’s air D+Triangle nerf is the only controversial change, but it’s gonna take a lot to convince me that it wasn’t necessary. That move was just plain abusable in the past. Now it requires some thought. I don’t see how that’s a bad thing.
As for another patch, i can’t speak to that at all. You’ll have to address that request to SMS.
Novis: Yes, those Isaac combos were left intentionally. I don’t have a problem with looping air U+Triangle, as long as it requires some skill and a proper setup. It was simply too easy before, because the reaction was extended to a non-standard length.
Also that combo doesn’t cause AP burst because Isaac’s U+Triangle shoots a bunch of 1 AP twitch reaction bullets and a single 20 AP mini-launch bullet. Twitch reactions generally don’t contribute to the infinite avoidance limit.
Lance_Drake: Thank you sir; i’m glad you’re enjoying the new Jak.
I don’t know where you heard that stuff regarding Drake’s neutral Triangle, but it’s pretty far exaggerated. My original plan was to increased neutral Triangle to D+Circle recovery by 15 frames, but that number was reduced to 5 frames after some playtesting. We never talked about increasing the recovery of neutral Triangle itself though.
Decreasing the AP gain of the Square finisher would’ve been a good idea, but i probably would’ve reduced it to 25 or 20 rather than 15. As for D+Square, i think there’s a lot of different ways to counter or punish it. Drake doesn’t have a counter himself or any strong combo options after his Up Throw, so that move being good didn’t seem like a problem to me.
Im not understanding ur logic maj, why does ratchet get to keep his down triangle combo and zoning potential when it has far greater range and jak loses his and it barely covers any ground. I dont see the balance there.
Another thing, his wave conussor shouldnt be the only thing to rely on in landing dash punch hits. As it makes jak too predictable. Every jak player is pretty much back to spamming wave doncussor like the early days to land those KCs and ap bursts. People even tell me in hate mail, all jaks just do the samething now.
Im not asking for any kind of drastic buff. Just having the bounce inconsistencies fixed and have it bounce off opponents would of been good enough. Now that this patch is is out, he needs the reliable recovery back as well as those other changes.
If the bf wont combo reliably again then it would make sense to atleast make it better when used on its own, which would require even more buffs or having the entire move redone completely. I’d rather just have the reliable combo potential back.
Thanks for the reply, Maj.
Dunno about Drake’s slide, though, man. Most people think it’s OP and nearly unpunishable. Hell, I know a Drake main on the GameFAQs board that thinks the move should be nerfed, and he’s a pretty high ranking player.
@Maj
Ah, so the turning around change was specifically for the grab combo. That’s interesting. Btw that change along with ALL the other Jetboard changes are fantastic! In addition to the grab combo, I made a list a few days ago on the forums of who it works on. Ratchet is actually one of the characters who the combo doesn’t work on at all. The Jetboard itself doesn’t even make contact. As for the characters who require turning around, they would be Kratos, Heihachi and Raiden.
I remembered a few of my concerns and questions now from the other day…
Did Jak’s Level 2 receive any stealth nerfs anywhere? It either feels like the initial stun start up was increased by a few frames or that Dark Jak’s jumping arc animation speed was slightly slowed down?
Similar to Jak’s Level 2, did the Blaster/S2 receive a slight rate-of-fire stealth nerf?
What exact changes were made to the Spinkick? I ask, because I prominently noticed quite a ‘few’ new things about it. Some old (pre-patch) habits are possible anymore such as getting different AP results higher than 30AP :P and controlling the ejecting hitbox.
The change you gave Jak’s D3 fully charged on ground, which was considering Jak airborne 5 frames after fire,.. I believe this change got rid of Jak’s bugs involving the charged version right? Did you know that this change also corrupted Jak’s ability to follow up a dashing punch (and S2, but who cares about S2 anyway) after guard breaks? So my 2nd question to you is, was this intentional, so that Jak purposely couldn’t follow up dashing punch after guard breaks anymore, or was this one of those “we don’t have a choice, we have to do this in order to get rid of these bugs”?
I’m also extremely interesting in knowing was N2/Arc Wielder considered in receiving any buffs, or was any buffs scrapped? (You already explained D2 to Khknight, so that’s why i’m not asking about that move).
Hey Maj, I have a few questions about the patch like everyone else here.
What was the thinking behind Toro’s level 2? Obviously he needed a way to land it, so the confirm is a welcome change, but was changing the super itself ever tried/considered? Because it still feels like a pretty bad super, since it’s easy to dodge and too slow to use as a reversal like most other level 2s. Some ideas I thought of were giving it a startup hit reaction (like Jak’s level 2), increasing its startup speed, or increasing the active frames of the explosion. Were any of those ideas ever considered? Just wondering, either way it’s a lot better now than it was before.
And what was the thinking behind Spike’s slingshot (up triangle) and ground hula hoop (neutral circle) changes? Both of these moves are still pretty bad. I think allowing Spike to charge and keep a slingshot charge would’ve worked (like Evil Cole’s giga punch), since it’s a very specific move to hit with – do you think that would’ve worked? And the hula hoop change actually removed some of Spike’s mid screen AP bursts from his uncharged forward square (even if they were too inconsistent for me to use anyway), though I’m guessing it was changed to make it more consistent (which it definitely is).
Another question, I love the changes Zeus got, but why was his armour not considered for more buffs? It feels like because he’s such a slow and unsafe character (especially when charging), he struggles to get attacks off without his armour being broken. A little more armour on his square attacks (maybe around 21AP while charging?) would’ve been a nice change I think. Was it ever considered?
Last question, why were Spike and Fat Princess’s rolls not standardised? Obviously Zeus got a better roll to compensate for losing his extended roll glitch, but the changes to their rolls seem a little strange.
Anyway, thanks for your work on the patch, it’s definitely made the game a lot more fun and balanced. :)
@Maj
Thanks for answering, do you have any idea why downgrab won’t link into stasis offline but it does offline?
Also what was the use you had in mind for the plasma cutter with this patch as it seems to be almost completely useless (only the ground version, I love the air version)
online but it does offline*
Maj, is there any chance I could get some more detailed frame data for Raiden’s Level 1? I know the first hitbox comes out on frame 33, but what about the second, third and fourth hitboxes?
I ask because I need to know if his Forward Square -> Level 1 and Neutral Triangle, Square -> Level 1 are escapable in the corner. A CPU set to dodge in practice mode will not recover from their roll before they get hit with the fourth hitbox of the super, but dodge training dummies roll late (they won’t roll certain lag confirms like Toro’s Up Square). Some frame data would be really useful, because I think I could work out whether this Level 1 trap is escapable or not based on the raw frames.
Im sorry maj but if you actually think about you would know that you completely overnerfed the checkpoint. like I have said a million times, it should have been changed so that you couldnt pop out of the checkpoint, jump and use it again. THAT was the problem, the problem was NOT double jumping and placing the checkpoint….
Hmm, i think some of you guys are operating under the flawed assumption that convincing me to agree with you about a change is going to get it done.
1) I don’t work at SMS anymore. In fact, i have a full time job at another company. I’d be happy to consult on another PASBR patch (and SMS is aware of that), but any decision to make another patch is entirely up to SMS. And frankly, i don’t know why they’d ever want to produce another patch considering this one resulted in 20% gratitude and 80% whining/complaints.
2) I worked really hard on this patch. I could not have worked any harder. It’s impossible for me to feel any regret because there weren’t any more hours in the day or days in the week i could’ve worked. Trust me, those of us working on this patch went waaay above and beyond what was required of us, purely to make you guys happy. There was no personal or financial incentive whatsoever for us to work that hard.
3) In a fantasy world where it’s entirely up to me to make another PASBR patch, i would categorically ignore every suggestion made within the first month. I’m 100% of the opinion that with ~250 changes released at once, it will take more than a month for the dust to settle.
Please keep all that in mind. I’m happy to answer questions to the best of my ability, but that’s all i can do at this point.
khknight: Haha the paradox here is that you guys wanted the old D+Circle back, which would’ve led to every Jak player going “back to spamming Wave Concussor like the early days” right? Anyway you’re exaggerating; there are lots of ways to land F+Square. For that matter, there are lots of ways to land D+Circle. You don’t have to just spam it and hope to get lucky.
Lance_Drake: Maybe Drake’s D+Square could use 1-3 extra frames of recovery, but it’s definitely not a gamebreaking move by any stretch. The way i look at it, if you block D+Square and throw Drake, you’ll definitely catch him if he slides again or blocks. Yes it’s somewhat risky, but Drake’s options up close are pretty limited too. His throws aren’t that scary and he doesn’t have any practical lvl1 confirms.
LightSage: Are you sure about that? I just downloaded v1.12 at home and Jak’s Up Throw into j.F+Square works perfectly against Kratos, Heihachi, and Raiden without turning around. It works against Ratchet if you delay the follow-up slightly and turn around. You’re trying this on flat ground, right? Slopes might mess up this combo against some characters, but unfortunately there isn’t much that can be done about slope behavior at this point.
Jak’s lvl2 super didn’t receive any stealth nerfs. F+Triangle shouldn’t have received any rate-of-fire changes either. I did have to change F+Triangle and D+Triangle quite a bit to make them function properly, because there were a lot of undocumented glitches to fix. But none of that was done for the purpose of nerfing those moves.
Neutral Square did receive a lot of changes to make it connect properly and not generate weird high/low amounts of AP. The changes to charged D+Circle weren’t made to “corrupt” any F+Square followups. They were done because they were necessary to prevent floating ground attack glitches.
Neutral Triangle was not slated to receive any buffs. I understand that you guys wish it was more useful – but it’s a massive, persistent, aimable hit volume. Making those kinds of moves “more powerful” or even “more reliable” is usually a recipe for disaster.
I hate to repeat this, but Jak has a lot of move designs that are fundamentally overpowered on paper. There’s a fine line between properly balanced Jak and v1.11 Isaac.
flicky: What can i say? Toro’s lvl2 super is basically useless on paper in 1v1 matches. It’s a miracle that i found a way to make it confirm at all. I tested most of the ideas you suggested, but it’s REALLY far from being a useful 1v1 super. We’re not talking about closing a small gap, y’know?
Spike’s charged U+Triangle was changed to eject simply because Nathan Gary thought it would be more satisfying. The problem with making it like Evil Cole’s neutral Circle is how would you communicate that the slingshot is charged while he’s running around? It’s not as easy as setting Evil Cole’s fist on fire.
As for Spike’s neutral Circle, my only goal was to make the medium charge version combo from the first hit. It didn’t make sense to me the way it was. Otherwise i’m not sure how you make a move like that more useful without creating some dumb lockdown tactic.
Zeus is difficult to balance because he’s already top tier (and quite unstoppable) in FFA. More armor would just make him more mindless, so i definitely didn’t want to go that route.
What i did want to try was reducing his charged attack startup and reducing his AP gains accordingly. That way his charge attacks would become more practical in 1v1, without boosting his AP generation rate in FFA. But that seemed pretty risky to do on a whim. It would take too many rounds of dedicated playtests to get the numbers right.
Spike and Fat Princess’ rolls weren’t standardized for the same reason as Zeus. They were far enough from the norm that i wanted to acknowledge the previous versions somehow.
I like having a strict standard for universal stuff like throws, rolls, air evades, etc., but i also like having a few intentional exceptions for variance. (Of course nothing as extreme as Zeus being invincible the entire way through, or some throw attempts being half as long as others for no discernable reason.)
Novis: I’m not sure. Isn’t Isaac’s Down Throw, neutral Triangle combo character-specific anyway?
bc1910: Sorry sir, i don’t have any way to obtain that information anymore.
crashbfan: I actually thought about it and i completely disagree. You’re entitled to your opinion of course, and you may be right. But the game looks terrible when Sackboy is running away for 10 minutes.
Even at double-jump height, Sackboy’s checkpoint provided a mindlessly free escape from 99% of dangerous situations. It requires some thought now. That’s a good thing for everyone except runaway Sackboy players. Sorry dude, sometimes the needs of the game outweigh the wants of a particular playstyle. I’m sure you can adapt and find new tech.
Since bc1910 asked, here’s the remaining frame data i happened to have written down in my personal notes:
Kat’s throw attempt has 12 frames of startup, 2 active frames in front (only), 2 active frames behind (only), and recovers for 64 frames
Ratchet’s throw attempt has 12 frames of startup, 60 active frames, and recovers for 25 frames
Cole’s F+Circle has 15 frames of startup, becomes active on frame 16, and recovers for 23 frames (the projectile stays active for 29 frames)
Cole’s j.D+Circle has 15 frames of startup, is created on frame 16, and recovers for 27 frames (the ice shard becomes active on frame 23 and stays active for 28 frames)
Nariko’s U+Circle has 25 frames of startup, becomes active on frame 26, and recovers for 39 frames (the projectile stays active for 73 frames)
You guys should have frame data for all throws now. The other three moves are kinda random, but maybe they’ll be useful as a baseline comparison for finding other projectiles’ frame data.
@Maj
I just want to first say I didn’t want the old D3 back nor did I want the old S2 back. Having the D3 hit from behind Jak uncharged thing was cool, but for the full charge, Jak wouldn’t need all that range back that if his moveset was balanced, especially his other gun related moves. As for S2, since Jak’s AP gain is soo much on point now and is making a big difference in his total AP gain rate (mostly from the AP burst actually though), an AP buff is probably no longer required. I say probably, because usually what makes a move useful is it’s effectiveness along with it’s AP gain. You know S2 is only going to give you 15AP IF all the hits connect on a non-blocking opponent, so with knowing that, you’ll use the move less, especially when the move already gets you punished for a few other reasons or is unreliable for few different reasons. Anyway, since I noticed, as usual, that the AP value towards moves like S2, which would be Radec’s N2, Emmett’s S2 and Isaac’s N1, have all been set to also gain 15AP I can see this was a universal change for those type of moves, so it’s a fair and rational change and I hardly count this as a serious nerf, unlike other Jak players. So this brings back the other only worthy aspects of this move worth buffing, which are the range or start up, which I’ve also already mentioned.
S2 doesn’t need it’s eject back (shouldn’t have ever had it to begin with), it doesn’t need it’s old AP back (any longer)… the only fair things of buffing on this move to make up for a few flaws that just can’t be fixed (like the thin and tiny hitbox of the shots) is the start up and/or range. I’m going to be honest. Ever since patch 1.10 the S2’s range has ALWAYS felt insufficient in range (and effectiveness). It doesn’t make sense or seem balanced at all where his current S2’s range relies, especially when you got other zoners in the game with that 1 long ranged projectile. (Seriously, how am I getting outranged by characters who aren’t even zoners such as Toro, Nariko, etc, and getting outranged by projectiles that aren’t even guns such as debris, shurikens, molotovs, etc. I’m already getting outzoned by zoners, so to get outzoned by “any” projectile in the game period seems extremely unfair even with my slight mobility advantage, which was honestly taken into way too much consideration, and especially since the eject of S2 doesn’t send you flying or rolling away anymore). Since S2 no longer has or needs it’s eject back, a (slight) range buff shouldn’t be a problem, especially if it’s a small range buff such as 1+ meter. The start up has always been my PRIMARY concern, but the range was my secondary concern. I wanted to share this, because I was able to accept every other nerf on Jak post 1.10, but the S2’s range nerf only and some other Jak players feel the sameway regarding S2.
Now for the reply, I guess this is ANOTHER Vita exclusive issue. It was already tested that Big Daddy can’t be comboed off his up grab on Vita only, and now it seems the combo works on Ratchet and on the other 3 without turning on PS3 only. And yes I tested all of this on PM1.
Yeah for D3 I was just informing you on an (intentional) issue (nerf) that arose from that change.
What changes were made for S2, because I want to know how that firing 2 shots upon landing from the air got removed. That glitch was BEYOND annoying.
So, are you saying it would even be too much to buff N2’s AP, start up (slightly), or duration? I mean the move isn’t all that useful now, especially when it’s used as poking, gaining you a measly 4AP. It’s mostly useful in corners and mostly useful against opponents with extremely bad rolling habits, but either way you’re only getting 20AP out of that, which requires 4-5 hit consecutive hits. Even in FFA this move isn’t that useful and it’s a FFA-crowd-control type move, so if it ain’t that much of a threat in FFA then you know for a fact it’s not even close to OP in 1v1. I liked the old duration-reset it had pre-1.10 when used from the air and then landing on the ground, but that was taken away (while Radec’s Flamethrower actually kept it’s same exact reset duration, which it still has to this day). So, may’be the old reset coming back, or a legit duration increase, or an increase in AP, or slightly start up increase would be a fair change. I don’t think the AP can be increased to 30AP though, because since the N3 lifts opponents, it’ll have to eject probably, which is why Radec’s flamethrower is fine with gaining 30AP, because it doesn’t lift opponents.
I meant (*unintentional) regarding my little D3 response.
I do agree with LightSage on a couple things about Jak. Having significant recovery frames on a kiting projectile zoner is good to have them get punished for missing, but the start-up frames get pretty irritating. In addition, ever since the range nerf on Jak’s F+Triangle, he’s always felt like he just barely misses opponents when using a projectile. F+Triangle, F+Circle, D+Triangle, you name it, they all feel like they could have juuuust a bit more range.
Also agree with him on Jak’s N+Triangle. In addition to it’s awkward start-up and even more awkward recovery, the AP gain is just not great. I’ll accept it as a move that’s more risky, so it’s better to use in corners, and from safety on platforms, but it’s hard to get the full AP from it, since the hit reaction pushes the opponent away before you can get the full 20 AP. The only way to get that much is to start at point blank, and that’s hella risky. I would have loved to have an AP buff to it to compensate for the amount of missed hits it gets, or for the hit reaction to be changed so the opponent is not pushed out as far.
Thanks for the answers Maj. I can see how Toro’s lv2 could be hard to balance, it definitely seems like a “throw it out into a crowd” FFA super like Nariko’s lv1.
And the Spike answers make sense too. Maybe the little flash that appears while charging the slingshot could’ve stayed to show it’s fully charged, but yea, it’s too late for that now. It’s not something Spike *needs* anyway, it was just a random idea I had. :p
And I really do like the idea of those Zeus charge changes, but I can see why it they weren’t put in, since it’d be a pretty big change to his character.
As for the roll changes, that makes sense, but in that case, why was Big Daddy’s roll standardised? Just wondering, since I think I remember his roll being the worst. It’s not a big deal either way.
But anyway, thanks again for your work on the patch. :)
Oh, and another quick question: why was this Nariko
change added?
After F+Square Key Pose, secondary F+Square sequence opener recovery has been reduced to 48 frames (previously 51).
There’s nothing wrong with it, it just seems a little random. Was it changed to let her combo into her level 2 from it? Because that was my guess.
LightSage: Keep in mind, Jak’s F+Triangle loop is dangerously close to being inescapable online when you fall into it. Reducing the startup might push it over the edge, to where you always air tech back into the next round of bullets. It sucks to be restricted by something like that, but design is all about understanding and abiding by constraints.
Anyway i think Jak’s F+Triangle is good enough as it is right now. It’s the longest-ranged move in its class. Comparing it to Sweet Tooth’s F+Circle is misleading. It’s possible to run under the molotov whereas it’s impossible to run through Jak’s projectiles.
The whole point of these changes was to shift Jak’s focus away from being completely reliant on F+Triangle, so buffing it again would totally defeat that purpose. You guys are starting to lose perspective by wanting to win with that move. To you it may seem underpowered, but to other players it’s still a huge pain to deal with.
It’s unfortunate that Jak’s Up Throw -> j.F+Square behaves inconsistently on the Vita. I don’t know what to say about that, but it’s not the end of the world if it’s only useless against one or two characters. If it could be fixed with a slight hit volume increase, i wouldn’t be opposed to that – but i already made the air F+Square hit volume pretty big so i wouldn’t want to increase it by another 50% or anything crazy like that.
Lance_Drake: I don’t have a problem with increasing the AP gain from neutral Triangle from 20 AP to 25 AP, so each hit could gain 5 AP instead of 4. But i wouldn’t want to mess with the reactions it causes because i think they look/feel pretty good right now.
Maybe the pushback can be reduced slightly, but it’s hard to picture what that would look like without trying it. Messing with velocity impulses is almost never straightforward.
flicky: Evil Cole’s neutral Circle glow works because his hand is attached to his arm at all times. If you did the same thing with Spike’s U+Triangle, would his hand start glowing? That doesn’t really make sense, right? Would he run around with the slingshot all the time once it’s charged? Would it disappear and reappear every time he uses another gadget? It seems like a minor thing, but it’s a pretty damn inconvenient problem.
Big Daddy’s roll is standardized. In fact it was standardized before. It’s slightly confusing because the animation is longer than other characters, but he’s always been able to block, jump, attack, etc. on the same exact frame as everyone else.
And yes, that recovery change to Nariko’s secondary F+Triangle sequence opener was made specifically so she could combo into lvl2 super. I wasn’t trying to turn it into a legitimate threat or anything that powerful, because she doesn’t really need it.
I was just trying to make it interesting somehow. It’s just a gimmick. (There are legitimate tactics/mixups and there are gimmicks that only work if you surprise someone with them.)
Out of curiosity, why is Sackboys shockpad unaffected by the standardized mine timers while both the ground and air variant of Spike’s bananas are?
@Maj
I don’t see why the Blaster can’t be like Isaac’s old Plasma Cutter (without the actual gun-loop). Also, Isaac’s Plasma Cutter is actually the longest ranged tool of it’s class if we’re talking about straight forward guns that shoot bullets-per at once. And even if this was true, it doesn’t matter when Jak gets outranged and outzoned by other projectiles. About the loop, so you’re basically saying it’d be a weaker version (weaker in terms of hitbox & range) of Radec’s N2, because Radec’s N2 does this precisely and it’s incredibly annoying to deal with (which also comes from it’s much bigger hitbox). However, i’m sure you could find a solution if you wanted to such as increasing the recovery/cooldown or something else.
Maj with all due respect, S2 is very under-powered ranged tool and one of the weakest ranged gun moves in the game and is simply not in a good place right now (especially via 1v1, but most noticeably in 2v2), BUT it is close to being there. ALL it needs is slightly more range or a proper start up (buff). I am not the only Jak player who would tell you this. ALL the skilled Jak players use this gun by short hoping, landing on the ground, and then pressing the trigger button at the same time, which negates the slow start up and activates an instant start up. This is how me and another top Jak player have been using this move since the game debuted. All Jak players later on started copying our way of using it, because that’s literally how you use his S2 viably, which this has it’s flaws as well. This move does not accordingly punish whiffed moves or punish anything at all properly. I’ve tried forcing it to more times than I can count for over a year, so I know this as a fact (and I still surprisingly try to make it work in situations it won’t ever work in). Like it’s beyond ridiculous the way this move has to be used and I don’t like the points that are being bought up, since other characters have what you avoided with Jak, such as Radec whose move-set contains several gun/ranged tools that go farther than Jak’s AND causes ejects.
Trust me Maj.. seriously trust me, I am not losing perspective here at all on S2, which is “precisely” why I said the move doesn’t need it’s eject back nor it’s old AP gain back. What made S2 reliable was multiple aspects not just 1 or 2 and guess what? SuperBot nerfed the range already, took away the eject, and now the AP has been reduced again, so JUST 1 of the requested/suggested changes I proposed wouldn’t & shouldn’t be a problem. A slight range increase or start up increase will just make the move reliable and/or viable outside FFA (which it ain’t that great in that mode either). What made the old Blaster OP in FFA, which that was literally the only mode it was a huge issue in, was it’s combination of range, eject, and AP, so as I just said, with the AP now reduced in half, the eject completely gone, the ranged nerfed by 2 whole meters.. a start up buff or tiny range buff shouldn’t be a big issue, especially for the other modes OUTSIDE FFA. I hope that you’re also aware that the tiny hitbox of the bullets additionally makes this move very punishable, unlike Radec’s N2, Ratchet’s S2, etc, etc, and should actually make the hypothetical loop that you speak of easier to get out of, since the hitbox is incredibly small. The openings this gun leaves and the way Jak can be punish is no doubt unfair, so this is why i’m placing my complaints and concerns on his S2.
With that said, I agree completely with your AP buff consideration on Jak’s N2. Anyways, I still want you to know that the work you’ve done on Jak was great and that you avoided some great issues by buffing certain moves the way you did, as I could see that. There’s always room for improvement, especially on Jak, but you still did a great job making him a much more consistent character who can better hold his own against other characters in the game (as he should have been from the start lol) and I appreciate your longer hours you put into balancing that you DIDN’T have to do. Trust me, I appreciate everything you have done for Jak and the rest of the game!
Hey maj 2 questions about sackboy’s level 3
1. Why did u guys never consider allowing players who were airborn during the activation of the lvl 3 to stay airborn. If this was implememted in the first patch to change to his level 3, it would make every other change almost unessesary. I always thought this would of been the best way to balance his level 3.
2. Why do players not gain respawn invisiblity after the end of the level 3. Cause what happens is this http://youtu.be/KOJaLWOO1k8 4:35
Sack boy gets 2 kills with his level 3 and pops the ap bubbles while doing it granting hip a level 1. The super ends and the player respawns and is left completely vunerable. Sackboy just walks up and boom level 1, there was nothing the other guy could do. So sackboy can still 3 stock with his level 3.
I dont understand how this was overlooked.
Don’t worry, I tested everything myself offline. I found that most of Raiden’s moves aren’t corner confirms but Neutral Triangle -> Square is. Kind of annoying that it’s still a kill confirm, but I’m happy to have found some new tech. Here’s the video if you’re interested:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kncR9VZfPMw&feature=gp-n-y
squish: Hmm, i can’t really remember if that was intentional or an oversight. I know i wasn’t too worried about Sackboy’s D+Circle shockpad overall. Hitting it doesn’t cause it to explode like other mines, and it doesn’t cover as much ground space as Spike’s triple banana peels.
Plus nobody was complaining about it, so it didn’t seem like a huge risk. And like i mentioned earlier, i don’t mind the occasional exception as long as there’s some logic behind it.
LightSage: Man, how can you even bring up Radec? Has Radec ever been ranked higher than Jak in any version of PASBR? Isaac isn’t a good example either. What’s done is done, but he was clearly overpowered right out of the gate.
It may be possible to reduce the startup of Jak’s F+Triangle without affecting its firing rate. If that’s the case, i wouldn’t be opposed to reducing its startup by 2-3 frames.
But that’s the last thing i’ll say about Jak’s F+Triangle. I’m sooo tired of talking about it. Doesn’t it feel like we’ve been talking about that one move since the game was released?
khknight: Sackboy’s lvl3 super bubbles were originally positioned at opponents’ exact coordinates, but that caused some weird online issues. Messing with lvl3 supers is pretty scary because a lot can go wrong. Maybe i was a bit too conservative when it came to lvl3’s, but attempting major changes like that just didn’t seem worth the massive risk.
And i agree that respawn vulnerability should go away after Drake’s and Sackboy’s lvl3 supers. It wasn’t overlooked. It just happens to be an extremely difficult problem to solve due to the way that stuff was programmed/scripted.
bc1910: That’s too bad. I slowed down Raiden’s lvl1 super about as much as i could, to make sure that performing it after any of his ground staggers left at least 3-5 frames for the opponent to roll away.
It sounds like disabling its movement again would eliminate this trap? How big of a problem is it? Does the fact that it’s corner-only save it from being overbearing?
Yeah, I think the Level 1 change was fair but it’s really quite slow now, I wouldn’t want to nerf the startup again. Removing the steering would not prevent the trap from working on characters with short rolls like Kat and Sackboy. Plus I really love the steering mechanic, not because it’s massively useful but because it’s just a really cool feature. I personally would playrate the entire active period of the super by 3-4 frames to make it 3-4 frames slower. If Spike can escape with his faster roll, everyone should be able to escape if the final hit were to come out a few frames later.
I only published this yesterday so it’s too early to say if it’s overbearing, but I was using the trap for a few days before I made it public and I don’t think it will be hugely overbearing. In FFA and 2v2, others will be able to rescue you. I’ve played some great players in 1v1 and they barely even get hit grounded by Air Forward Circle or any of the other moves this trap works from.
Personally, and I don’t mean to sound elitist or harsh, but I think you deserve to be punished hard if you get hit by Raiden’s Air Forward Circle on the ground in 1v1. It’s predictable and telegraphed (since he has to get so low to the ground), kind of slow, unsafe on block vs some characters, and reactable at long range. As a close range mixup it’s okay, but again the fact he has to get so low before he uses it makes it very predictable. So the fact that he can sometimes confirm a Level 1 from it doesn’t bother me too much. I would prefer if it didn’t work from Forward Square or Air Down Triangle, but both of those moves have significant startup as well.
@Maj
Actually yes, Radec was ranked higher than Jak on their 1v1, 2v2, and FFA tier list post 1.10 and 1.11 and even had the MU adv over Jak. I mean what’s wrong with bringing up Radec? Only thing Jak has ever had over Radec was his mobility and melee game. Radec has and had everything else. He had multiple AP burst mid-screen before Jak even had 1 mid-screen, Radec has always had the start up, range, AP, and priority advantage over Jak. Radec had grab combo potential and grab AP burst before Jak had 1 for either. “Literally” running away from Jak negates Jak of building ANY AP even via poke damage or chip damage, unlike Radec where as he has the range and anti airs to at least gain some AP from opponents who run- the new landing lag only helps his indefinite range sniper even more for opponents who run on flat stages. It was already established by some players that Radec’s meta was developing very slow, which it was, therefore a lot of his potential wasn’t shown until much later. Similar to pre-patch, all of Radec’s grabs are extremely useful to him. Down grab is an inescapable-setup kill confirm (may’be character specific, may’be), up grab leads into resets, Ap burst, and confirms, side grab, thanks to the new changes, gets him a large amount of AP when opponents have good meter. In conclusion, just like pre-patch, Radec is even harder to deal with now post-patch for Jak in the MU, due to Jak’s zoning not having been buffed. Jak, a zoner, has to mostly play rush-down with his melees (like in the past) to properly try and defeat a Radec. Radec’s N2 which is basically Jak’s S2 2.0 outranges Jak’s moves & outspeeds his moves. The rest of Radec’s moveset is really self explanatory via the Jak MU. Jak’s ranged tools being the way they are is why he gets outzoned, out ranged, and outsped by other related ranged tools in the game. Jak has and still is the weakest zoner in this game for multiple reasons- just tossing out information your way.
That’s pretty much what I wanted to here from you Maj. Like you said, you could at least reduce it’s start up by 2-3 frames. You have no idea how useful this would be. I already knew the fire rate would have to be altered, which is why in my past buff list I suggested the old rate of fire come back. If the rate of fire has to be altered then let it happen! The new rate of fire is cool and seems fitting, but after testing with it for a little over a year, a start up buff is just more needed for balance.
The last thing you said about S2 is all that needed to be said, a start up or slight range buff, but you chose start up. I am too getting tired of talking about this move, but I talked about it because of how unreliable it is- it’s even rarely used overall. I know we’ve been talking about it since the game released, but we’ve been discussing all the new versions of S2. The subject may have stayed the same for all this time, but the discussions has evolved to be related to the new changes everytime. That is all Maj, a hypothetical start up buff should be good. We are now done talking about his S2 :)
Hehe, that Sackboy shock-pad logic you provided plays into the theory (which I was laughed at for sharing) I had on it not being touched to have a duration of 5 secs like all mine type moves. This also explains why Ratchet’s telsa spikes wasn’t touched and explains other things as well, so thanks for that answer along with other ones. But wait a sec… that logic doesn’t go well with Big Daddy’s ice puddle and Evil Cole’s oil spike, since they don’t explode either :O. Anyways, most of your answers towards other characters answered the questions I had that I never asked due to Jak always being my priority.
hey can we get some insight as to why Cole and Sly’s Level 3 (guaranteed 2 kills on each person on every map) still remains as 675 AP? and these characters have NO trouble building AP either.
also in my opinion at this point if sackboy is able to get the 3 kills then sackboy deserves it after all this moveset nerf crap. a THIRD OF HIS MOVES dont even have the capability to get AP and all of them have been nerfed except for his side+o (The fan)
I was wondering if FP was supposed to keep her Level 1 confirms? I know you removed it so where she can’t have any assists out while she does Level 1 but she can still do Level 1 confirm on atleast half the cast.
All you have to do is end the Kill confirm with d1 rather than d1 f3. A good thing to note too is that she has a loop that starts with d1 and end with a 90 AP kill confirm I believe. Were these High AP confirms supposed to stay oooor….? Also it’s nice to see LES has taken his walls of text to this site
That’s true, there wouldn’t be an obvious way to show Spike’s slingshot being fully charged, and having the glow stay there probably wouldn’t look right, unlike Evil Cole’s Punch. That makes sense, the uncharged version is still useful enough at least.
And the Nariko change makes sense, along with the startup nerf. I’m guessing that with her level 2 eject comboing into the actual cannon shot midscreen, that the startup was increased so that she wouldn’t have too many confirms?
And Big Daddy’s roll being standardised all along is interesting. Did it always have the same amount of invulnerability frames? Because I remember a few people saying that BD had less invulnerability during his roll – was that just because of the animation?
And 1 more question, I’m happy with Radec’s changes (the down square change gives him a lot of new interesting setups). But was a roll cancel ever considered for his F+Square? Just wondering.
Anyway, thanks for the answers again Maj. :)
So about spike, many of us agree that spike didn’t get a significant enough buff and he is still slightly below the borderline for mid tier.
I think these little changes would really benefit him and bumo him up to where he needs to be.
His air n1 combo should not have spike descend as hes performing the combo, he should stay in the same spot in the air like kratos. This would help with landing the combo more consistently.
Bump the ap gain of b-cannon from 5 to 10 so he can get some old ap bursts back
Change the hit reaction of level 2 ground down circle( the single bannanna) to a butt drop reaction. To make this hard land move really worth using and spike should have a bananna move that should make people slip and fall. Lol, like how come none of his current bannana moves make people slip and fall on their butts?
There a few more little changes i think he needs but i g2g, i’ll post the rest of my ideas later
His helicopter should have more lift to it on its initial start up similar to how it was in his announcement trailer.
His air rc car should fall faster to the ground
The edges of His level 2 should be able to go through solid ground so it doesnt explode prematurely
And His teleport should be slightly faster.
With these minor changes, i think will be where he needs to be.
Tho i think he does need on nerf, his side triangle bananarang. It should be a destructible projectile like sackboys cake, with say 20 ap of armor. The reason i think this is necessary is because of how spikes heavily rely on for zoning because of how safe it is.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OxQ7FVYSnms
kat’s Level 1 KC by just dashing down
bc1910: I agree, Raiden having a corner lvl1 kill confirm from a ground stagger is way less of a problem than having a lvl1 kill confirm from any ground hit, anti-air, and throw. I also agree that speeding up the active portion of the super is probably the best way to eliminate that corner trap – if it proves problematic.
crashbfan: You mean Cole’s lvl3 super gets two guaranteed on every 1v1 tournament map? Because those aren’t the only maps in the game and 1v1 isn’t the only mode in the game. Cole’s lvl3 super is properly costed.
Sly’s lvl3 super cost is arguable, but nobody seemed to be complaining about that before the patch, so we didn’t think it was a huge issue. Sometimes you guys forget how many improvements were included in this patch and how many issues were fixed/solved.
If you’re nitpicking stuff like that, the only conclusion i can draw is that you’d be complaining about some detail no matter how comprehensive the patch was. So i’m not sure where to go from here, because continuing to read feedback starts to seem like a lose/lose proposition.
As for that Kat lvl1 confirm, obviously it was unintentional – but she got a lot of other nerfs. It’s still too early to judge where she’ll end up on the matchup chart. There’s nothing wrong with her being top tier, as long as (almost) everyone has a chance against her and she isn’t winning every tourney.
The danger of jumping to conclusions is that it leads to worse unbalance. For example, a lot of people are whining about Evil Cole’s fully charged neutral Circle startup getting slowed down by a measly 3 frames. But he’d obviously be top tier if it hadn’t been slowed down, and Evil Cole still won last week’s Level Up tournament. If enough people complain, he might receive a few buffs and become the next Kat. (Personally i think he’s fine as is.)
RamenKing24: Fat Princess wasn’t supposed to gain those D+Square lvl1 super confirms, but it’s incorrect to say that nothing changed. It doesn’t really matter how much AP she gets before the kill confirm.
What matters is the number of situations that can lead to a kill combo. Before this patch, Fat Princess could kill from several ground attacks and from a throw. She can no longer do it from a throw, which is a pretty big change.
flicky: Nariko’s lvl2 super startup was increased because otherwise she’d have a guaranteed kill after half her moves – as well as after blocking pretty much any attack in the game. I basically matched her startup to the Kratos/Dante/Jak range.
Big Daddy’s roll has always been standardized, both in terms of invincibility frames and recovery frames. I have no idea why that particular misconception has become so widespread or persisted for so long.
We never really discussed a roll cancel for Radec’s F+Square. Hmm, what would that accomplish?
khknight: I agree with Spike’s air neutral Squares floating longer on hit like Kratos. I wouldn’t mind the D+Triangle AP buff. I like your suggestion of reducing the vertical collision size of Spike’s lvl2 super projectile, but i’m not sure if it’s possible.
I don’t like the idea of changing his F+Triangle to stagger instead of launch. That would make it just like Sir Daniel’s neutral Triangle, which isn’t too exciting. It’s also a huge buff considering all the lvl1 confirms it would lead to. Anyway one of his banana mines causes a “slip and fall” stagger reaction.
I’m hesitant about making Spike’s teleport faster because it might turn into a really annoying runaway tool. I have the same concern about improving his hover lift. Anyway i think the key to improving Spike is making his F+Triangle better without changing the reaction.