PASBR Patch 1.12 Balance Changes

As some of you may have heard, i’ve been working on a PASBR balance patch with the extremely talented crew at Santa Monica Studio. In implementing these changes and prioritizing bugs to fix, we incorporated as much of the community’s feedback as possible.

Hopefully the end result is a more fun and balanced experience for the entire roster. Without further ado, here is the complete changelist for v1.12 of PlayStation All-Stars Battle Royale!

    General Changes
• Isaac’s alternate “Engineering R.I.G.” costume and Zeus’ alternate “Young Zeus” costume have been unlocked.
• Every character’s throw attempts have been standardized to 9 startup frames, 3 active frames, and 18 recovery frames, with the exception of Isaac, Kat, and Ratchet.
• The minimum effective range of throws has been increased to 1 meter (previously 0.75m) for all characters except Parappa, Sackboy, and Toro.
• In online matches, jumping out of an opponent’s throw attempt is now resolved through the throw clash system.
• Every character’s air dodge has been standardized to 27 invincible frames followed by 9 vulnerable frames (previously 29 invincible plus 7 vulnerable).
• Every character’s directional rolls have been standardized to 18 invincible frames followed by 16 vulnerable frames, with the exception of Fat Princess, Spike, and Zeus.
• Characters can no longer perform actions for 3 frames after landing from air idle.
• Characters can no longer double jump during down tech.
• Landing during down tech or down tech canceled into air dodge now triggers the same recovery as landing during an attack.
• Getting hit in the air no longer renews a character’s double jump ability.
• All timed transformation Level 2 Supers can now be ended manually by pressing L2.
• The AP eject formula has been refined to drain a higher percentage of AP orbs at low levels and a lower percentage of AP orbs at high levels. Heavy damage is calculated as follows:

  ◦ f(AP) =
{
0.3333 × AP,
0.0667 × (AP – 150) + 50,  
0.1333 × AP,
if AP ≤ 150
if 150 < AP < 600
if AP ≥ 600
}

  Medium damage is simply 67% of the Heavy value, and Light is simply 33% of Heavy.
  (Previously, AP eject amounts were calculated using fixed percentages: 3/5/10% for items and 10/12.5/15% for throws.)
• Throws have been grouped into two general categories:
  Throws that cause eject or flatten reactions eject Heavy amounts of AP orbs.
  Throws which act as combo starters eject Light amounts of AP orbs.
  Jak’s Up Throw and Sweet Tooth’s Up Throw eject Medium amounts of AP orbs.
• Throws, items, level hazards, and other AP eject attacks now produce 50% more orbs during 2X AP Overtime, 100% more orbs during 3X AP Overtime, and 150% more orbs during 4X AP Overtime. AP multipliers no longer increase the value of individual orbs.
• Explosion radii of all mines have been standardized to 0.375 meters, explosion durations have been standardized to 8 frames, and maximum lifetimes have been standardized to 5 seconds.
• Double-tapping L2 now causes characters to eject 50 AP as orbs while taunting.
• All character-specific combo tutorials have been revised in light of the following changes.

    Big Daddy
• Air F+Square armor amount has been increased to 21 AP (previously 11).
• U+Circle recovery has been reduced by 2 frames.
• D+Circle and air D+Circle ice mine duration has been increased to 150 frames (previously 96 ground and 114 air).
• Forward Throw and Up Throw recoveries have been reduced by 7 frames.
• Up Throw can now be canceled into U+Circle.
• Level 2 Super no longer allows rolling or air dodging, no longer remains invincible during recovery, and duration has been shortened to 6.5 seconds (previously 7 sec).
• Big Daddy’s reaction volume has been extended slightly further downward during common launch reactions.

    Cole MacGrath
• Second air neutral Square hit volume has been enlarged by 25%.
• F+Circle recovery has been increased to 23 frames (previously 20).
• Air U+Circle ice platform is now destroyed when interrupted during startup.
• Air D+Circle recovery has been increased to 27 frames (previously 24).
• Level 1 Super hit volume has been lowered to 1 meter above ground (previously 2.25m).

    Dante
• Second neutral Square moves slightly further forward to prevent whiffing after the first neutral Square connects at maximum range.
• Third neutral Square now generates 15 AP (previously 10).
• Successful neutral Circle and air neutral Circle counters can be canceled into Triangle attacks.
• Air neutral Circle hit volume now covers the area slightly below Dante.
• U+Circle and air U+Circle now generate AP evenly across all hits and final hit volume has been enlarged by 17%.
• D+Circle projectile durability has been increased to 15 AP (previously 5) and air D+Circle projectile durability has been increased to 10 AP (previously 5).
• Level 1 Super startup has been increased to 35 frames (previously 30).
• Level 1 Super can be canceled into Triangle attacks for 15 frames after the fireball is thrown.
• Level 2 Super can turn around properly during the first 5 frames of activation and no longer remains invincible during recovery.

    Nathan Drake
• U+Square and air U+Square explosion timers have been reduced to 2 seconds (previously 2.5 sec).
• Neutral Triangle -> D+Circle now extends the initiation period of Drake’s cover wall to 25 frames (normally 20).
• Up Throw recovery has been reduced by 13 frames, and Drake can jump an additional 10 frames prior.

    Emmett Graves
• Third U+Square recovery has been reduced to 33 frames (previously 36).
• Kinetic Rifle F+Triangle now generates 5 AP per shot (previously 3+3+4).
• MAW Launcher neutral Triangle recovery has been increased to 29 frames (previously 27), increasing the total duration to 42 frames (previously 40).
• Union Shotgun neutral Triangle recovery has been increased to 32 frames (previously 28), increasing the total duration to 42 frames (previously 40).
• Union Shotgun F+Triangle, air F+Triangle, U+Triangle, air U+Triangle, D+Triangle, and air D+Triangle active periods have been extended to 3 frames (previously 1).
• Union Shotgun air D+Triangle recovery has been reduced by 20 frames to match air F+Triangle and air U+Triangle.
• MAW Launcher and Union Shotgun discard timing has been standardized, in many cases occurring 3-6 frames earlier.
• Ground weapon discard animation can now be canceled into R1 bunker interact and landing during air weapon discard no longer triggers air attack landing state.
• Forward Throw recovery has been reduced by 7 frames.
• Level 2 Super startup has been reduced to 1 frame (previously 4).

    Evil Cole
• Second air neutral Square hit volume has been enlarged by 25%.
• Fully charged neutral Circle and air neutral Circle punch startup has been increased to 13 frames (previously 10). (All other versions remain unchanged at 12 frames startup from idle or 6 frames startup from charge windup.)
• Level 1 Super startup has been increased to 23 frames (previously 20).

    Fat Princess
• Air neutral Square startup has been increased to 11 frames (previously 8).
• D+Square recovery has been reduced by 1 frame and reverse swing now causes a light reaction.
• U+Triangle now remains on the ground for the first 10 frames of startup.
• Neutral Circle, air neutral Circle, U+Circle, and air U+Circle explosion radius has been reduced to 1.25 meters (previously 1.75m) and explosion duration has been reduced to 8 frames (previously 14).
• D+Circle and air D+Circle explosion duration has been increased to 5 frames (previously 2).
• Up Throw recovery has been reduced by 2 frames.
• Directional rolls have been shortened to 18 invincible frames followed by 19 vulnerable frames (previously 18 invincible plus 22 vulnerable).
• Level 1 Super can no longer be performed while an assist is on screen.
• Level 2 Super activation period has been reduced by 2 frames and duration has been shortened to 6 seconds (previously 7 sec).
• Level 2 Super ground attack can now turn around during the first 3 frames of startup.

    Heihachi Mishima
• Air neutral Square now generates 20 AP (previously 15) and the stagger kneel reaction caused by the second hit has been shortened to 40 frames (normally 50).
• Air D+Square now generates 20 AP (previously 15), causes a slam-down bounce reaction, and hit volume has been extended 0.5 meters beyond Heihachi’s fist.
• F+Triangle follow-up hit volume has been extended 0.25 meters downward to hit short characters consistently.
• U+Triangle recovery has been increased by 3 frames, making it -7 on block.
• D+Circle -> Square becomes a guard crush attack when performed with full D+Circle Raijin charge.

    Isaac Clarke
• Neutral Square now generates 5 AP per shot (previously 10) and recovery time has been standardized across all states.
• F+Triangle, air F+Triangle, U+Triangle, air U+Triangle, and air D+Triangle reaction lengths have been standardized.
• F+Circle recovery has been increased to 20 frames (previously 11) and air F+Circle now begins descending after 40 frames (previously 32).
• F+Circle can now be canceled into F+Triangle after a successful hit.
• F+Circle and air F+Circle blade now reflects off all walls and level boundaries.
• Throw attempt timing has been readjusted to 9 startup frames, 3 active frames, and 23 recovery frames. (Projectile sensor stays active from frame 4 to frame 20.)
• Level 1 Super cost has been increased to 150 AP (previously 125).
• Level 1 Super startup has been increased to 40 frames (previously 35).
• Level 2 Super cost has been increased to 400 AP (previously 325).
• Level 2 Super startup has been increased to 20 frames (previously 14).
• Level 3 Super duration has been shortened to 11 seconds (previously 12 sec).

    Jak and Daxter
• Neutral Square and air neutral Square now generate 35 AP (previously 30), with Jak’s primary strikes gaining 30 AP while Daxter’s strikes gain 5 AP (previously 26+4).
• F+Square now generates 10 AP (previously 5), recovery has been reduced to 29 frames (previously 31), and can be canceled into U+Circle.
• Air F+Square -> Square timing has been readjusted, punch hit volume has been enlarged by 50%, and turning is enabled during the first 3 frames of punch startup.
• U+Square now remains on the ground for the first 14 frames of startup, and can be moved slightly further forward during the first 5 frames of startup.
• Air U+Square can now be canceled into air neutral Square and air F+Square with similar timing to ground U+Square, but only after a successful hit.
• F+Triangle now generates 5 AP per shot (previously 6).
• U+Triangle and air U+Triangle now generate 10 AP (previously 10), startup has been reduced to 20 frames (previously 24), and explosion radius has been reduced to 1.5 meters (previously 1.65m).
• Neutral Circle and air neutral Circle drone durability has been increased to 11 AP (previously 1), and the drone now bounces off walls and level bounds instead of exploding on contact.
• U+Circle now generates 10 AP (previously 5).
• D+Circle and air D+Circle projectiles can no longer be reflected or absorbed, and uncharged explosion hit volumes have been enlarged by 20%.
• Forward Throw and Down Throw recoveries have been reduced by 7 frames.
• Up Throw can now be canceled into air F+Square.

    Kat
• Neutral Square recovery has been increased by 2 frames, making it -5 on block.
• Second neutral Square recovery has been increased by 6 frames, making it -9 on block.
• Third neutral Square recovery has been increased by 9 frames, making it -15 on block.
• U+Square recovery has been increased by 2 frames, making it -20 on block.
• Neutral Triangle now has 10 additional frames of recovery when it doesn’t register a successful hit, making it -15 on block.
• D+Triangle -> Square recovery has been increased by 5 frames, making it -12 on block.
• D+Triangle no longer retains respawn invincibility.
• Air neutral Circle debris summon now begins descending after 10 frames (previously 65).
• Gravity Shift air dash and wall stand dismount can no longer be canceled into air dodge.
• Wall stand duration has been reduced to 2 seconds (previously 4).
• Level 1 Super can no longer be performed during neutral Circle debris heave cooldown.

    Kratos
• Neutral Square recovery has been increased by 1 frame, making it -5 on block. (Second neutral Square recovery remains unchanged at -10 on block.)
• Third neutral Square now generates 25 AP (previously 30) and recovery has been increased by 9 frames, making it -18 on block.
• Air neutral Square and air F+Square now require a successful hit to be canceled into double jump.
• Third air neutral Square now generates 25 AP (previously 30).
• U+Square recovery has been increased by 3 frames, making it -12 on block.
• D+Square recovery has been increased by 6 frames, making it -12 on block. (Second D+Square recovery remains unchanged at -10 on block.)
• Neutral Triangle recovery has been increased by 11 frames, making it -12 on block.
• D+Triangle recovery has been reduced by 10 frames to match the air version, making it -23 on block.

    Nariko
• After neutral Square Key Pose, secondary neutral Square sequence now generates 30 AP total and consistently causes a stagger kneel reaction.
• Third air neutral Square now generates 25 AP (previously 30).
• After F+Square Key Pose, secondary F+Square sequence opener recovery has been reduced to 48 frames (previously 51).
• Square attack Key Poses can now be canceled into F+Triangle.
• Air U+Triangle can now be canceled into air attacks on frame 42 (previously 43).
• D+Triangle now generates 10 AP (previously 20) and combos reliably into neutral Square from maximum range.
• Air D+Triangle now causes a mini-launch lift reaction against both grounded and airborne opponents, but can only be performed once per jump.
• U+Circle recovery has been reduced to 39 frames (previously 47).
• Forward Throw now causes a mini-launch lift reaction and can be canceled into U+Triangle.
• Forward Throw and Up Throw commands have been swapped to match the reactions they cause more intuitively.
• Level 1 Super cost has been reduced to 125 AP (previously 150).
• Level 2 Super cost has been increased to 400 AP (previously 325).
• Level 2 Super activation attack startup has been increased to 15 frames (previously 2).
• Level 2 Super initial hit volume length has been reduced to 5 meters (previously 6m) and shifted slightly forward, so most of the reduction affects the area behind Nariko.
• Level 2 Super activation attack now causes a full launch reaction.
• Level 3 Super duration has been shortened to 14 seconds (previously 15 sec).

    Parappa
• Neutral Square sequence now generates 40 AP total (previously 43).
• U+Square startup has been increased to 11 frames (previously 9).
• D+Square hit volume has been extended 0.25 meters forward to connect more consistently after neutral Square.
• D+Square can be canceled into F+Square 4 frames prior to normal recovery.
• F+Triangle recovery has been reduced by 5 frames, making it -7 on block.

    Col. Mael Radec
• Neutral Square hit volume has been extended 0.25 meters downward to hit short characters more consistently.
• Second neutral Square hit volume has been enlarged by 40% and can now be canceled into D+Circle.
• Second air neutral Square hit volume has been enlarged by 50% and recovery has been reduced to 21 frames (previously 24).
• U+Square recovery has been reduced to 23 frames (previously 26).
• D+Square now generates 20 AP (previously 10) and causes a stagger drop reaction.
• Up Throw recovery has been reduced by 3 frames.
• Level 2 Super startup has been reduced to 25 frames (previously 30).

    Raiden
• Fourth neutral Square and fifth air neutral Square now generate 25 AP (previously 30).
• Air D+Triangle landing can now be canceled into attacks after 5 frames, or blocking and jumping after 10 frames, but movement and supers are prohibited for the full 20 frames.
• Air neutral Circle counter now causes a mini-launch lift reaction.
• F+Circle -> B+Square now has a 5-frame cancel delay, and F+Circle can be canceled into D+Square with the same timing.
• Level 1 Super startup has been increased to 32 frames (previously 26) and recovery has been increased to 70 frames (previously 64).
• Level 1 Super no longer allows turning after the first 5 frames, but movement is enabled after Raiden begins spinning.
• Level 2 Super no longer allows blocking, rolling, or air dodging, no longer remains invincible during recovery, and duration has been shortened to 6.5 seconds (previously 7 sec).
• Level 2 Super activation EMP stun can be reduced from 3 seconds to 2 seconds by rapidly mashing inputs, and Circle attack stun can be similarly reduced from 1.5 seconds to 1 second.

    Ratchet and Clank
• Air neutral Square, air F+Square, and air U+Square now require a successful hit to be canceled into double jump.
• U+Square startup has been reduced to 14 frames (previously 16).
• Air neutral Triangle regains fall gravity after 10 frames (previously 1) and recovery has been increased to 25 frames (previously 20).

    Sackboy
• Neutral Triangle and air neutral Triangle serve now causes a mini-launch lift reaction with 14 frames of startup followed by 7 active frames, generating 10 AP. (Projectile startup remains unchanged at 40 frames.)
• Air D+Triangle checkpoint placement is permitted only when Sackboy has a double jump available.
• U+Circle and air U+Circle startup has been increased to 12 frames (previously 7) and bouncepad is now destroyed when interrupted during startup.
• Level 3 Super now begins with a 70-frame taunt to give the helpless bubbles a head start.

    Sir Daniel
• Second neutral Square hit volume has been enlarged by 25% and can now be canceled into F+Square.
• Third neutral Square now generates 25 AP (previously 20).
• Shielded F+Square now gains 21 AP of armor after 8 frames of startup, lasting until the quick sword thrust begins or until the fully charged sword thrust’s active period ends.
• D+Square now generates 20 AP per hit (previously 10) during the first spin.
• Air D+Square startup has been reduced to 21 frames (previously 26).
• F+Triangle causes less pushback on impact without the Golden Shield, allowing Sir Daniel to follow up with neutral Square midscreen.
• Shielded F+Triangle armor amount has been increased to 21 AP (previously 11) and turning is briefly enabled after a successful hit.
• D+Triangle startup has been reduced to 15 frames (previously 21).
• Air D+Triangle now activates a small hit volume near Sir Daniel’s feet after 31 frames of startup, causing a light reaction and generating 5 AP. The hammer smash hit volume has been extended 0.5 meters backward.
• F+Circle now causes a twitch reaction upon contact with opponents, generating an additional 5 AP.
• Up Throw recovery has been reduced by 10 frames.
• Down Throw recovery has been reduced by 5 frames.
• Level 1 Super cost has been reduced to 100 AP (previously 125).
• Level 2 Super now creates a 1 meter by 1 meter hit volume around the Chalice of Souls, active for 4 frames starting when the projectiles appear.

    Sly Cooper
• Neutral Circle and air neutral Circle counter attack recovery has been increased by 4 frames, making it -2 on block.
• U+Circle now reflects projectiles during frames 9-24 while hopping into the barrel only, and air U+Circle reflects projectiles during frames 17-30 only.
• U+Circle barrel exit now requires a successful or blocked hit to be canceled into air attacks, double jump, and hover.
• D+Circle explosion now launches opponents 10% higher.
• Up Throw recovery has been reduced by 2 frames.
• L1 invisibility now reduces Sly’s movement speed by 25% and his transparency level decreases from 90% to 67% after 2 seconds.
• Level 1 Super no longer becomes invincible at any point during recovery (previously invincible during frames 34-57).

    Spike
• Air F+Square charge requirement has been increased to 20 frames (previously 15).
• Charged U+Triangle and air U+Triangle now generate 30 AP (previously 20) and cause an eject tornado reaction.
• Neutral Circle now causes a stagger kneel reaction on the first hit, followed by a stagger drop reaction on the second hit. Quick dash recovery has been increased by 2 frames, making it -7 on block. Fully charged dash now generates 30 AP total (previously 25) and guard crushes while running forward.
• Air neutral Circle timing has been readjusted to combo properly and the first hit now generates 5 AP (previously 4).
• Up Throw now causes a full launch reaction and recovery has been increased by 2 frames.
• Directional rolls have been shortened to 18 invincible frames followed by 13 vulnerable frames.

    Sweet Tooth
• Neutral Square can now be canceled into U+Square, and both neutral Square hit volumes have been enlarged slightly to juggle more consistently after U+Square.
• U+Square hit volumes have been extended 0.1 meters forward.
• D+Square secondary gust now generates 20 AP (previously 10) and causes a crumple reaction to match the initial stomp.
• Air D+Square recovery has been reduced by 1 frame, making it -4 on block.
• Air neutral Triangle now allows movement while spinning, similar to the ground version.
• F+Triangle hit volume has been extended 0.25 meters forward during its 3rd and 4th active frames.
• Air D+Triangle hit volume has been extended 0.25 meters backward to cover the entire muzzle flash.
• F+Circle and air F+Circle molotov bottles now generate 10 AP (previously 5) from a direct hit.
• Forward Throw recovery has been reduced by 5 frames.
• Up Throw can now be canceled into Level 2 Super.
• Level 2 Super missile maximum speed has been increased by 50% and turning control has been improved.

    Toro Inoue
• Torobi neutral Triangle and air neutral Triangle now generate 20 AP (previously 26 and 36) and can be canceled into double jump after a successful hit.
• Torobi air F+Triangle final hit volume has been enlarged by 25%.
• Oni F+Triangle can now be canceled into Level 2 Super upon landing from the first spin.
• Oni air D+Triangle landing can now be canceled into block 5 frames prior to normal recovery.
• Forward Throw and Up Throw recoveries have been reduced by 3 frames.

    Zeus
• Air U+Square hit volume has been extended 0.5 meters downward and recovery has been reduced to 15 frames (previously 19).
• Charged neutral Triangle hit volume thickness has been doubled to hit short characters consistently.
• D+Circle and air D+Circle hit volumes have been extended further downward to cover Zeus’ entire body, similar to their charged versions.
• Charged D+Circle lightning bolt now generates 20 AP (previously 10).
• Forward Throw recovery has been reduced by 9 frames.
• Up Throw now causes a slam-down bounce reaction and recovery has been reduced by 5 frames.
• Down Throw recovery has been reduced by 6 frames.
• Directional rolls have been adjusted to 21 invincible frames followed by 13 vulnerable frames. (Previously Zeus was able to remain completely invincible while evading.)

    Items
• Leech Beam now siphons 100 AP (previously 140) in 4 AP increments (previously 5).
• Fusion Bomb bouncing Nitroballs now eject Medium amounts of AP orbs (previously Light).

    Miscellaneous Bug Fixes
• Online synchronization after Infinite Avoidance state has been improved.
• PS Vita version now ignores D-Pad inputs while holding opposite directions on the L-Stick and D-Pad, to match PS3 version behavior.
• Environment Stun reactions can no longer be thrown, which prevents inescapable Ratchet Suck Cannon loops on certain stages.
• Cole’s AP gain timing during neutral Triangle Overload has been corrected.
• Dante can no longer turn around mid-dash when F+Circle carries him off a ledge.
• Dante’s F+Circle and air F+Circle can now be canceled into B+Square and air B+Square, respectively.
• Drake’s Up Throw no longer counts toward the Infinite Avoidance limit.
• Drake’s lvl3 super Descendants can no longer be thrown when dizzy.
• Emmett’s air U+Circle and air D+Circle supply bunkers no longer fail to appear if summoned while landing.
• Emmett can no longer interact with supply bunkers while throwing, being thrown, or using Circle button moves. However, Square and Triangle attacks can still be canceled by pressing R1 (near supply bunkers).
• Emmett and Kat’s block stun durations have been standardized to 15 frames to match the rest of the cast.
• Isaac’s lvl1 super reticule stability has been greatly improved in online games.
• Isaac and Raiden’s air attack landing states have been standardized, preventing them from performing supers for 11 frames (previously 5).
• Jak’s U+Square now cancels into air F+Square with consistent timing in both directions.
• Jak’s air Triangle and air Circle attacks now transition properly to corresponding ground states when used immediately before landing.
• Jak’s charged D+Circle is now considered airborne 5 frames after the button is released.
• Jak can now use items correctly after pickup during Blue Mod gun stance.
• Jak now reacts properly to the Sonic Rift item and his own lvl2 super.
• Jak’s lvl2 super explosion hit volume has been extended 0.25 meters downward to reach ground level and clear out mines.
• Jak, Parappa, and Sir Daniel no longer negate pushback from multi-hit attacks while in block stun reaction.
• Kat’s neutral Circle and air neutral Circle debris online desync issues have been greatly reduced.
• Kat can now perform backward diagonal air dashes without turning around beforehand.
• Kat decelerates properly upon landing from air dashes while attacking or holding items.
• Kat’s crumple forward reaction timing has been standardized.
• Nariko’s neutral Circle and air neutral Circle now register all of their AP on the last hit, to trigger AP burst more consistently online.
• Nariko’s lvl2 super activation and cannon spin attacks can no longer be blocked.
• Nariko can no longer perform air attacks after her lvl3 super timer expires.
• Parappa and Raiden’s lvl2 supers are no longer considered grounded during air recovery.
• Ratchet’s F+Square and air F+Square wrench no longer hits twice on the way back.
• Ratchet’s air neutral Triangle now transitions properly to corresponding ground states.
• Ratchet’s air attack landing state has been standardized. (Previously Ratchet was able to attack or block immediately upon landing after using air Triangle and air Circle attacks.)
• Sackboy’s neutral Triangle and air neutral Triangle projectiles no longer cause a twitch reaction on impact (previously generating an additional undocumented 10 AP).
• Sackboy can no longer perform ground actions in mid-air during air F+Circle recovery.
• Sly’s air neutral Circle is now considered airborne during recovery.
• Toro’s air stance changes no longer allow canceling into Torobi air neutral Triangle, Oni air F+Triangle, and Oni air U+Triangle multiple times per jump.
• Toro can no longer turn around more than once during lvl1 super and lvl2 super startup.
• Zeus’ D+Circle and air D+Circle startup has been readjusted to always activate hit volumes and lightning bolts, even if the Circle button is released after 1 frame.
• Zeus’ lvl3 super activation now destroys existing Sackboy D+Triangle checkpoints.
• Boots of Hermes, Killer Bees, Leech Beam, and Razor Claws buffs are no longer removed by Infinite Avoidance state.
• Minor VFX timing fixes for Big Daddy’s air Square attacks, Big Daddy’s lvl2 super, Cole’s U+Circle, Dante’s lvl2 super, Emmett’s air Square attacks, Fat Princess’ charged neutral Square, Isaac’s neutral Square, Isaac’s item-equipped double jump, Jak’s lvl2 super, Kat’s U+Circle, Raiden’s air F+Triangle, Raiden’s D+Circle, Ratchet’s lvl1 super, Sir Daniel’s F+Square, Spike’s lvl1 super, Zeus’ D+Circle, LR-3 Railgun aim cancellation, and Murder of Crows projectile.

111 thoughts on “PASBR Patch 1.12 Balance Changes

  1. khknight

    I didnt say anything about changing the reaction in side triangle 0.o???
    I said it should be a destructable projectile

  2. _LightSage

    @Maj
    I highly disagree with both an AP increase to his D2 and faster start up or animation to his U3.

    D2:
    This is already one of the best shock moves in the game for both reliability and easy combo potential. It’s also one of the most highly abusive moves in general in this game, so it’s quite easy to spam. A shock move this reliable and spam-able doesn’t “deserve” and shouldn’t be given an (unnecessary) AP buff, IMO. It’s not like it’s super situational or has tight combo potential.

    U3:
    Right now his teleport seems balanced, after it’s last buff of course. Right now it has it’s uses and one of them is keeping your space and avoiding some attacks. If it gets any of the aforementioned buffs, it will have what it gives Spike the potential to do now + running away as you were concerned about. High level Spike players use this tool well for MULTIPLE reasons. If he still had his old teleport then that’s understandable but it seems balanced now.

    Speaking of Spike. A bit of the community is starting to accept the new Spike and realize that he still is good and/or slightly better than his pre-patch self. Been seeing quite a bit of Spike users on streams and their doing good and showcasing his new potential.

  3. Maj Post author

    khknight: Oh, you were asking for Spike’s medium charge D+Circle banana peel reaction to be changed from stagger drop to sweep knockdown. Somehow i interpreted that as asking for the F+Triangle bananarang reaction to be changed from mini-launch to stagger drop. Man, i must’ve been tired.

    Wait, isn’t stagger drop way more useful for combos? It’s the same AP, so why would you want to give up a good ground combo opener? I mean, it would probably look funnier and more like slipping on a banana peel, but this sounds like the kind of change that’d get me yelled at by Spike players.

    LightSage: That’s good to hear. Hopefully Spike players will find ways to take advantage of universal changes like landing lag, and find some cool combos from his Up Throw. I’m hopeful he’ll end up ranked higher than people expect.

  4. RamenKing24

    Removing the grab confirm wasn’t huge considering players rarely got that due to the difficulty of the Confirm anyways.

    Anyways I am going to be a bitch here and say I agree Sackboy was nerfed a bit to hard. I don’t understand the reason for adding the jelly buff that almost never works. Honestly I think it would of been nice if you could cancel into u1 after that. I honestly don’t think that would be over powered. Also why was the checkpoint nerfed like this exactly? You should of made it just so he couldn’t jump another time after he set it up high in the air. There was no reason to limit him this much with his checkpoint. I can understand the Level 3 nerf. Though there could of been a simple time reduction and getting rid of/reducing the amount of AP bubbles.

  5. crashbfan

    been playing sackboy for a few weeks now post patch. since he only got a few changes I just wanna say this. he should have got a buff to the jelly’s AP to at least 15, jetpack shouldn’t be so punishable and the checkpoint should be able to be placed at double jump height (but not able to be placed after another jump)

    and also why do the bubbles get a head start in the level 3 while in Drake’s, the players become controllable at the same time? since those are similar supers I dont understand why sackboys is worse.

  6. Maj Post author

    Sorry sirs, you’re gonna get zero sympathy from me regarding Sackboy’s checkpoint. Haha that move was dumb and needed to be retuned. I already explained my reasoning behind that change. If you think he sucks now, my advice is come up with other ways to buff him that are more interesting and involve interactive gameplay for both players.

    Same goes for his lvl3 super, which is still too powerful because he gets a free combo afterwards. Plus Sackboy gains AP (and items!) during his lvl3 super, bubbles move slower than Drake’s descendants, bubbles can’t fight back at all, and Sackboy retains his entire moveset during his lvl3 super unlike Drake. It’s hard to take your complaints seriously when your point of comparison is Drake’s lvl3 super. Why not compare it to Kratos’ lvl3 super?

    Anyway if he actually does end up underpowered in a month, i’d support raising the AP gain from his neutral Triangle projectile from 10 to 15. Actually we were gonna do that for this patch, until Seth suggested making it launch on the way up instead. I never thought people would complain about him gaining an interesting new trick, even if it has limited uses.

  7. RamenKing24

    The level 3 doesn’t change in 1v1 which is good it’s still a good 2 or 3 stock super yet in 2v2 it either works well or completely fails.

    Also your comment on the Checkpoint is ugh so I won’t bother since I know it annoys you so much. And ofcourse we complain about his “new trick” with the jelly. It’s completely useless. Not sure what we are supposed to do with a move that barely works and we have to it right next to the opponent.

  8. crashbfan

    well I compared the two Level 3 supers due to their nature of each beginning with a taunt, and other players being transformed. yes, while the zombies in drake’s level 3 might be able to move faster, they don’t have the ability to float in any direction like they can during Sackboy’s level 3. sackboy’s level 3 is incredibly bad in any mode out of 1v1 (and maybe 2v2, but ive been having little success with it) since you use it and everyone just simply floats away and since sackboy has little range and speed, it becomes a major problem while drake should be able to net the 4 kills pretty easily. the bubbles current speed was designed for his old level 3, where he could move instantly. Now that he can’t, it feels like the bubble speed should either be toned down slightly or act like drake’s level 3 where they begin movement at the same time.

  9. RamenKing24

    And if you wanted interactive gameplay from Sackboy why didn’t you even touch his Jetpack (n2 or u2) or his u1?

  10. crashbfan

    also in your comment of being more “interactive” as sackboy… the hitbox of his Up+Square (Grappling Hook) and other combo tools could have been adjusted because the tendency of them dropping is so much that its usually not worth the risk of sackboy trying to get a combo since he can be punished even with a kill by it. and like I mentioned above, a jetpack buff (since it is his main combo starter) would be nice, to make it a bit less punishable on block since it is atrocious when blocked.

  11. Maj Post author

    Guys, look, i respect the amount of time you’ve put into this game and i respect your level of knowledge. I don’t consider myself a better player by any stretch, and i don’t think i’m smarter than anyone here.

    But it’s simply too soon to be asking for specific character buffs and nerfs. I’m trying to be supportive of the PASBR community – so if you ask me questions, i’ll try to answer them. But if you’re here to convince me that Sackboy’s F+Triangle needs a buff, you’re absolutely wasting your time.

    Literally the only thing that goes through my mind when i read buff/nerf requests is “It’s too soon to decide.” End of story.

    I’m not trying to be argumentative or discouraging at all. Maybe it’s a good suggestion. Who knows? I just don’t have enough information to agree or disagree with any of these isolated complaints. And that’s gonna be true for at least another month. New tech is being discovered literally every day! What do you expect me to say in the middle of this crazy whirlwind?

    You guys should not be worrying about future nerfs or buffs right now. It’s a complete waste of time; both yours and mine. What you should be doing instead is figuring out strategies, combos, and matchups. Nothing else matters at this point.

  12. flicky

    Well, the idea about Radec’s F+Square was to have it a 2 input move, or roll cancellable after the first hit, so that it isn’t as punishable as it is now (but not completely safe). I saw them suggested a few times, so I was just wondering if any changes to it were considered.

    Also, a question about Spike – I’m surprised that the uncharged version of his air F+Square got its startup nerfed, instead of just the minimum charge time for a guard break. Was the uncharged version thought to be overpowered?

  13. crashbfan

    “new tech” for sackboy hasnt been discovered for a long, long time. in fact the last thing discovered for sackboy was the Up grab AP burst that he has back around a full year ago. since then, nothing has been discovered that can be used now. Sackboy didnt get changed outside of just making moves flat-out not work anymore such as checkpoint, a pretty straightforward Level 3 nerf that gimps him outside of 1v1, and jelly being back to a high-risk/low-reward move. melee buffs have been suggested since even before 1.10. combos drop on nearly half the cast and make it too risky to bother with.

    so since nothing new was added to sackboy, theres no new tech to find with him. the game has been out for a pretty long time, and sackboy isn’t really a complex character.

  14. Maj Post author

    flicky: Oh, i guess i never really saw Radec’s F+Square as a move you should be throwing out like a poke. I always considered it a move that should be comboed into, so it can lead to F+Triangle or lvl2 super. I think he’d benefit more from gaining another combo starter than from devising some convoluted way of making F+Square safer.

    To my knowledge, the uncharged version of Spike’s air F+Square shouldn’t have been altered. Only the minimum charge time for the guard break version should be higher, like you’d expect. That’s what it says in the changelist.

    crashbfan: Sounds like you have everything figured out, so i guess there’s nothing new i can tell you.

  15. bc1910

    Hey Maj, I have a question from a couple of players named Wiyr and Lizardheart. They’re wondering if cheat codes were used to test PSABR during development, specifically to let people spawn with supers. They’re curious because they’ve come across two instances of players spawning at the start of match with a Level 1 or 2 ready to use.

    In a 2v2 tournament in patch 1.10, a PaRappa player consistently spawned with a Level 1 at the start of the match, despite restarting the match several times. More recently in patch 1.12, Wiyr played with a Drake user who spawned with a Level 2 at the start of a 1v1 match. Wiyr was hosting, so it’s not likely to be some kind of host desynch issue. The Drake player said he had no idea how it happened.

    I think this is probably just a random online glitch, but both these players would appreciate any insight you could give.

  16. flicky

    That’s strange, Spike’s uncharged air F+Square is definitely slower than it was. It seems like the overall minimum charge time was increased, instead of the minimum charge time for a guard break.

  17. Maj Post author

    bc1910: During development, we had debug menu options for setting meter to lvl0/1/2/3, but it stayed exactly at those levels even after gaining AP or using supers. Anyway all that stuff is automatically disabled in final builds, so there’s no way that’s causing the problem.

    The closest thing we had to a cheat code was pressing L2+R1 to gain lvl3 super, but that only worked after a specific debug menu option was enabled. Plus it was only for granting lvl3 supers, not lvl1 or lvl2 supers. So that can’t be the problem either.

    When players start a match with meter, is it exactly lvl1/lvl2 or somewhere inbetween levels? Because i remember hearing about a weird bug where players would keep the remaining AP from a previous online match under certain conditions. But i thought that was fixed or stopped occurring.

    It’s pretty lame if that bug has resurfaced, but i can’t say i’m shocked. PASBR has some very complicated netcode to handle all the crazy special cases that occur between four players. The minute SuperBot shut down, i gave up hope of all those online bugs ever being fixed.

    This patch was a sincere effort to improve the gameplay experience as much as possible, but i was never under the illusion that we’d be able to fix everything. And SMS was pretty careful not to imply that every bug could be fixed, so i hope you guys didn’t have that expectation either.

    flicky: Well if that’s the case, it was probably an oversight. The charged version was definitely the main target of that change.

  18. crashbfan

    There’s a toro bug that has been around since 1.10 that he loses all his AP when he turns during the start of his level 1 & 2.

    If sackboy has a mine or even his own shockpad in front of him and he uses a fan to shoot a projectile, the projectile disappears in thin air.

  19. Maj Post author

    He doesn’t lose all his AP. When Toro turns around during lvl1/lvl2 startup, he actually re-enters those states – which means the AP cost for his supers is deducted a second time. Unfortunately i wasn’t aware of this bug until after the patch was released.

    Not that it would’ve have been easy to fix, but i probably could’ve come up with a semi-clean solution. Hearing about that kind of stuff after the fact is definitely irritating and disappointing. But like i said, can’t fix everything.

    Sackboy’s F+Circle/D+Circle bug was known, but it’s practically unfixable. Or rather, fixing that one bug would’ve taken the same amount of time and resources as all of Jak’s, Nariko’s, and Sir Daniel’s changes combined. Which would you rather have?

  20. crashbfan

    huh. what causes the shockpad thing though? it didn’t use to do that until it got nerfed in 1.10. up until then, it only happened if someone put a mine in front of you.

    another really nasty toro glitch (it’s a new one)- the measures that were taken to prevent his air stalling can actually make toro completely unable to use an air version of his move. if you do the air up+triangle twice after briefly switching form in the air, it will do the standard animation of him switching to oni form. if you use any air moves during this time, they will break and not be able to be used until toro dies

  21. Maj Post author

    I don’t know precisely what causes the shockpad glitch. Sackboy’s projectile setup is extremely complicated, with a lot of reflecting and retargeting going on. And a lot has changed since v1.09, so it’s not as simple as one nerf.

    That Toro bug definitely sucks. I wonder what causes it to break like that. Anyway i’ll take the blame for it, but there’s nothing i can do about it now.

  22. _LightSage

    Hey Maj.. a few more small questions.

    1. “Jak’s lvl2 super explosion hit volume has been extended 0.25 meters downward to reach ground level and clear out mines.” Can you explain the point behind this change AS WELL AS the reasoning for this change? I don’t precisely know what this buff did and I want to know the reason behind this buff or tweak.

    2. I know we had very short & non-detailed discussion on this before, but why didn’t you make it so that Dark bomb has an even 360 hitbox/hit-volume on both sides? Why can’t the “back” range match the front range? I mean it’s not like the DB has any crazy active frames (if it even has any right now) like Emmett’s Level 2, which his has an even 360 hitbox AOE on both sides.

    3. Why was Isaac’s Level 2 raised up to 400 rather than 350? I understand that the super’s cost AND start up together were OP and not balanced pre-patch, but with the fact that the start up has finally been set at a seemingly good-balanced start up AND can still only get 1 kill per person, why put that cost at a 400 rather than 350? 400 should be set for supers that can get 2 stocks on a person or/and for people with very high AP gain. 325 seems too low, 400 seems like things would be taken too far, but 350 seems like a perfect choice when you consider Isaac’s other supers AND moveset changes, IMO.

  23. bc1910

    Yeah, I’m curious as to why the 350 AP cost tier for Level 2s was taken out, especially since it means Level 2s only have 2 cost tiers whereas Level 1s and 3s have 3 cost tiers. I know there weren’t many supers that cost 350 AP but I think quite a few supers could benefit from that cost. I think Isaac’s Level 2 would be perfect at 350 AP, and a few others like Emmett’s would be good at 350 AP too. Is there any particular reason why that cost tier was taken out in 1.10?

  24. crashbfan

    it was nice talking to you maj, thanks much for your hard work on the patch, we deeply appreciate it. though it isn’t perfect and I wish that level 1 confirms could have actually been removed and nariko not become god tier, but I understand there was some issues with the amount of time able to be put into the patch.

    im likely selling my game now, as sackboy has become mostly a joke character. :/ his tier list drop is comparable to Toro when he had his original divekick to his 1.10 self. i bought the game for sackboy but now that sackboy alone is holding me back from winning due to his limitations its no longer fun for me.
    i do hope to see a sequel in the future and hopefully see you have a chance to work with the devs on it. you had some great ideas and made some characters actually fun to play while still viable (Sweet Tooth and Sir Daniel were greatly balanced.)

    once again thanks maj for taking the time on not only the patch but for answering our questions too.

    -crashbfan

  25. TelephoneCalls

    Hey Maj,

    I was just wondering why Zeus did not receive any appropriate buffs/nerfs that suited his playstyle in all modes. I believe you said before that you didn’t buff his armour because it would’ve been overkill in FFA (I mean, Zeus wasn’t even top tier in FFA to begin with), but I don’t think I made myself clear enough when I suggested his armour change.

    It was both a buff and a nerf that I suggested; when Zeus fully charges an attack he has a window where the armour is very high (exceeding 30AP if I’m correct). My suggestion was to make it universally 21AP so he could hold his own in 1v1 but not wreak ultimate havoc in FFA. Right now he’s sitting at 15AP armor for uncharged attacks and while charging, so any character with a 20AP attack (which is every character) can easily disrespect Zeus’ charged attacks by mindlessly throwing them out; considering the size of Zeus’ hitbox, these mindless attacks usually connect aswell. It makes playing Zeus incredibly frustrating, making me thing “oooh, if only I had armour!” every single time.

    Also, while the grab combo from upgrab is certainly appreciated, it still leaves Zeus without a reliable level 2 confirm. Zeus’ level 2 is absolutely terrible and can easily be airdodged by any character despite the standardised airdodges in place. I feel increasing the height of Zeus’ upthrow and changing it to a shock reaction would allow it to confirm into a level 2 (and not a level 1 due to its height) and still combo into u1, au1, an1 like the current bounce reaction does in this patch.

    I would like an explanation to what you were thinking because Zeus is pretty much the worst character in the game, winning virtually Zero matchups because he is too slow and not powerful enough to contend with anything thrown at him. If there is another patch please consider the two changes.

    – Armor on all square attacks (charged and uncharged) universally at 21AP.
    – Up throw causes a shock reaction, and the height of the throw is increased to avoid it being a level 1 confirm (but can confirm into level 2).

    Thanks for reading, hoping for a response,
    – TC

  26. Maj Post author

    LightSage: Jak’s lvl2 super hit volume was extended slightly downward because it didn’t reach ground level before, which meant that leaping directly onto Sweet Tooth’s mine wouldn’t blow it up. So the super would end, then the mine would explode and Jak would get hit, which looked kind of ridiculous. Now it consistently blows up mines while Jak is invincible, which seems a lot more appropriate.

    Otherwise i think the hit volume size is pretty massive, so i don’t think it warrants an increase. If i remember correctly, it’s roughly the same size as Isaac’s lvl2 super. Anyway making it hit further behind Jak seems like rewarding bad aim. I’m not a big fan of making it easier to get unearned kills.

    bc1910: During development, Omar and Paul decided that super costs should be set at 100/125/150 AP for lvl1 supers, 325/400 for lvl2 supers, and 600/675/750 for lvl3 supers. A few lvl2 supers were mistakenly set to 350 AP, and those were corrected in v1.10 and earlier patches.

    It’s true that a few lvl2 supers might be more appropriately costed at 350 AP, but i think the proper response would be making them more (or less) powerful to fit the 325/400 cost tiers. I considered making a couple of lvl2 supers cost 350 AP in this patch, but that seemed disrespectful toward the original development team.

    crashbfan: I’m sorry you feel that way, but thanks for sticking around as long as you did. Hopefully you’ll get your wish of a sequel someday. For what it’s worth, i’d definitely buy it too.

    TelephoneCalls: My goal with Zeus was to make him more competitive, and i think this patch was a huge step in that direction. Zeus is probably still underpowered in 1v1 mode, but the right path to take him the rest of the way is murky at best.

    It’s true that every character has 20 AP attacks, but almost every character has 30 AP attacks as well, so would that change make enough of a difference? It’s hard to say.

    If i had made that change and Zeus ended up perfectly balanced, you’d all be happy. If he ended up underpowered, we’d still be having the same conversation with slightly different words. If he ended up overpowered, a lot more people would hate me.

    So i decided to play it safe, hoping that his other changes and nerfs to existing top tier would boost Zeus up a few ranks. You have to understand, there was nothing magically preventing this patch from making the game less balanced. There are far worse outcomes than Zeus/Spike/Toro not being buffed enough. I know some of these changes aren’t super exciting, but i did my best to strike a balance between fun and caution.

    Regarding your other suggestion, i find it hard to imagine a lvl2 confirm being possible without someone discovering a lvl1 confirm. Also a shock reaction just wouldn’t look as cool given the throw’s animation.

    If you really think Zeus needs a lvl2 confirm, it might be safer to propose a direct cancel from one of his regular attacks, like Toro’s Oni F+Triangle. But doesn’t Zeus have a lot of almost-guaranteed lvl2 super setups? It’s pretty hard to get away from that thing.

  27. khknight

    Jaks dark bomb may be as big as issacs level 2 but issacs lvl 2 kills immediatly. Where as jaks’s lvl 2 gives people some heads up and a chance to get away. Its a heavily telegraphed level 2 just like emmets and toros but it doesnt have the explosion size to compensate for it, making it too easy to dodge.

    This could be fixed by speeding up the intial jump jak makes on his level by 25%, just like how patch 1.11 increase the speed of his fall by 25%. It would be an even looking animation and it would kill much faster after start up.

    Other touch ups the i think the dark bomb needs is keeping players affected by the intial shock in that shock status. What mean is any player in that shock state can be freed from it by getting hit(of any ap value) by an outside player. This is extremely frustrating in 2v2 when your own partner screws jak out of a kill and hurting the team. Players in the shock stste should always stay in the shock state until the super ends.

    And a couple more active frames on the super to make up for its size would be nice.

  28. TelephoneCalls

    @Maj
    21AP Universal Armour would make a HUUUUUGE difference. If you’d made that change ALONE I (and many other Zeus players) would be happy regardless of whether he’d be bottom or mid tier. It means that most characters would have to respect the fact he was charging an attack rather than simply going along the thought pattern of “Oh, I’ll just throw out my quick easy 20AP attack and kill confirm/burst combo him”. The fact you didn’t think it would make enough of a difference and thus chose to not include it at all baffles me. Lack of decent armour is SERIOUSLY holding him back in all modes.

    Zeus’ level 2 suffers from what I call “Toro Syndrome”; a simple air dodge completely negates it entirely and it’s a pretty terrible super. Zeus has to fly over to the opponent, risk himself to their super attacks, and likely not get a single kill because the opponent can air dodge. Even if I get them in a hard knock down, the opponent can simply get up and short hop air dodge if Zeus isn’t quick enough on the draw.

    Your suggestion of it cancelling into a move is interesting; perhaps cancel the uncharged forward square combo into a level 2, it creates sufficient height for it to connect, and doesn’t make his charged teleport redundant after breaking the level 1 mark. So yeah, I agree with you there. Keep the throw as it is; but the uncharged forward square string would cancel into the level 2. Right now he has no reliable confirms and definitely needs one.

    You played it safe, but he’s the worst character in the game now. He cannot contend with anyone, gets straight up out-armoured by Big Daddy, and just sucks. He has no good matchups in 1v1 and the only mode he’s semi-viable in is 2v2 because he can support a teammate.

    Seriously though, a level 2 confirm and 21AP Univeral Armor would make him solid mid tier in all modes (give or take a few spaces). They are currently his two major flaws holding him back from being viable in any mode.

    Also, I did give it about a month trying to discover new stuff for him before writing to you about Zeus, but all I found was fancy AP Burst combos; no new confirms, or anything that’s good at punishing landing lag, and Zeus isnt going to benefit from that at all.

    Something funny I found recently was Zeus’ forward square string actually level 1 confirms PaRappa and nobody else for some odd reason, dunno why that is but… eh.

  29. Heroicmoises

    Not sure if i’m known, but I gotta say thank you on not touching Sly’s Teleport Thunder Roll and level 3. All those 3 didn’t need any changes.

  30. Maj Post author

    khknight: Jak’s lvl2 super also costs 75 AP less than Isaac’s. Your suggestion to ignore reaction state changes is extremely dangerous and would likely cause a dozen gamebreaking glitches.

    Honestly, debating Jak’s lvl2 super feels like nitpicking. Whatever problems Jak has, i don’t think his lvl2 super is in the top 5.

    TelephoneCalls: I’d love to believe this statement: “If you’d made that change ALONE I (and many other Zeus players) would be happy regardless of whether he’d be bottom or mid tier.”

    But from experience, it just doesn’t hold up. There are at least 20 changes in this patch that were supposedly the only/last thing the PASBR community needed to be happy, yet it took less than 6 hours for the complaints to start rolling in.

    The truth is, anything less than perfection draws complaints – and perfection itself is endlessly debatable. At this point, i’ve given up on the hope of making everyone happy with a single patch. Now i just hope the game as a whole stays competitive for the majority of the cast.

    For what it’s worth, i’d be willing to try your armor idea if i had the opportunity to work on more patches. But i think it would require more tuning based on matchup results. It’ll probably take more than one patch (or one very lucky patch!) to perfectly balance Zeus.

    Heroicmoises: You’re welcome, sir. Sly’s right about where he needs to be, so i agree that his F+Triangle, U+Circle, and lvl3 super are more-or-less fine as they are.

    The only thing that still annoys me about him is that his neutral Circle counter confirms into lvl1 super from anywhere on the screen. That’s the only thing i’d slow down by a couple of frames.

    (Although i thought i already did that. It’s the only change that i seriously wonder if it didn’t make it into the patch somehow. I’ll have to compare video clips sometime, just for my own curiosity.)

  31. TelephoneCalls

    @Maj
    Sorry Maj, but as much as you think people would still complain about Zeus if this change occurred you’re utterly mistaken. I can’t speak for other characters, but something that was highlighted by myself, VinDaBess and other Zeus players on MULTIPLE threads, videos, etc, was the fact his armor was holding him back severely and it was a required buff to make up for his loss of extended roll.

    We were fully aware that just a simple armor buff wouldn’t perfect him, but we did not care because the one massive flaw of Zeus would be gone and we wouldn’t have to constantly roll yo avoid attacks, instead armoring through them LIKE A HEAVY HITTING CHARACTER SHOULD.

    I first had mild disappointment at the lack of armor and thought “maybe the grabs will help him out” and “well, the roll is still ok I guess” and continued to mess around with him to find new tech. I stomped out my bad rolling habits (cause of the old roll) and experimented with landing lag, then ventured into public match. They weren’t very successful in a FFA standpoint or a 2v2 standpoint. I found myself losing a lot, having my charged attacks punished/raw supered simply because I couldn’t risk cancelling them through rolling because my rolls were punishable too.

    So what did you make by “playing it safe”? You made a slow, punishable character with poor armor that can be easily broken by fast attacks.

    Zeus’ best MU in 1v1 (and probably the only fun one to watch) is mirrors. http://serial5.ru/watch/WTkaBO7awqU/fight-club-silver2-0-8zeus-vs-telephone-callszeus.html <— This is fairly early in so I lost a few stocks to landing lag/down techs. My fault really. But eh, that's not important.

    Notice how easy his armor is broken? Notice how his level 2 can be dodged on reaction? (Not just by teleport but airdodge too).

    The second stock I lose to Silver was a prime example of Zeus' number one flaw. Silver was teleporting to catch my roll, I was charging an attack, knowing full well he'd try this. He then decided to charge his teleport fully, causing a 20AP attack to hit me, negating the armor entirely and taking a stock.

    The opponent can disrespect his charged attacks and it's game changing when they do. That move was slow, imagine Toro's neutral triangle, Raiden's air up triangle, Kratos' up square! Kat's neutral triangle! These moves are too fast for Zeus to do ANYTHING against them! That's why he needed armor. Playing it safe has made him the worst character in the game.

  32. khknight

    Top 5? You’re not giving youself enough credit maj.

    You really did a great job improving jak, honestly

    Infact, i’d say there are only 4 things(not 5) that still needs changing.

    And thats his blaster stsrt up, his beam reflexer recovery, his dark bomb as mention above and the glitches on his level 3. Aside from those, jak is almost perfect.

  33. _LightSage

    @Maj
    Thx for the specific answer on Jak’s Level 2 change pp (post patch) and the cost tiers of Level 2 supers. It’s pretty weird though how Level 2 Supers lost a tier, since Level 1 and 3s have 3 tiers while Level 2s have now only 2 tiers. Like I seriously don’t get that.

    Anyways about Jak’s level 2. I respect your opinion on the being rewarded for bad aiming, but as I said before, the Level 2 doesn’t have any crazy active frames, so this shouldn’t be a huge issue. Emmett’s similar Level 2 Isaac’s similar Level 2 are extremely hard to side dodge (because of their active frames and start ups) where as Jak’s Level 2 can be side dodged easily. In game-play it looks extremely unbalanced & weird to see someone easily side dodging through a large AOE bomb type move. The super already has a few bad cons to it as is and every single character’s super can punish this with ease due to very long recovery. I’ve been procrastinating on making a video on the multiple ways to dodge Jak’s Level 2 with no difficult timing involved, but I will get it recorded soon.

    Maj, Jak’s Level 2 is literally only viable through his initial stun that was added in 1.10. Jak’s Level 2 viability solely comes from the stun alone (not even Dark Jak’s ToD and his arc speed increase), so Jak’s level 2 is carried by the stun alone. Without the stun, the super is worthless and factually easier to dodge than Toro’s Level 2 (since Toro’s is faster, has a larger AOE, AND active frames). The super is suppose to be representing the devastating Dark Bomb, yet DJ’s initial stun is what makes the bomb hit reliably. Dark Jak and the animation of his leap is completely fine right now IMO, but the Dark Bomb itself needs work. You miss the stun, you don’t get the kill, that’s how it goes. So, the super really does need work, because the bomb is suppose to be the most threatening thing about the super, not the initial stun. Jak’s Level 2 is actually in his top 5 of needing changes (towards the bottom of top 5 though). It’s a super based on crowd control, yet it can barely get multi-reliable-kills (if the stun doesn’t hit all the opponents) in FFA and sucks in 1v1 (without the stun). This super is “trash” and immensely unreliable when used raw. Can’t even yolo (raw) this and hope to get a kill, which is sad. It’s all about the stun. The meta with this super is making sure the stun connects as that’s the only way you’ll get the kill. Does that sound fair to you, especially for a LEVEL 2 Super?

  34. Maj Post author

    TelephoneCalls: Oh, i didn’t play it safe for Zeus. I played it safe for the rest of the cast. If Zeus wasn’t the worst character in the game, someone else would be and those players would be here trying to guilt-trip me instead.

    And just because a few Zeus players agree on a suggestion doesn’t make it universally agreed upon. Believe me, if your desired armor change had been made, someone would come out of the woodwork to complain about it.

    It’s weird that you guys are so attached to a single character. I guess it’s understandable, given that PASBR is many people’s first fighting game. But if you look at fighting game history, any game where half the roster is competitively viable would be considered incredibly balanced.

    Of course ideally i’d love for the entire cast of PASBR to be equally balanced, but that’s an impossible demand in every practical sense. I might’ve failed Zeus or failed Sackboy according to crashbfan, but a few letdowns are 99.9% inevitable in these circumstances. The real question is, did i fail PASBR as a fighting game? I don’t think i did.

    Anyway i’ve already said that i’d be willing to try your suggestion if i had the opportunity, but at the moment i don’t. So what more are you hoping to accomplish here?

    LightSage: Once again, level 2 supers didn’t lose a cost tier. They never should’ve had a third class. An unintentional mistake was corrected. That’s all.

    And if lvl2 supers were going to have a third cost tier, the numbers certainly wouldn’t be asymmetrical like 325/350/400. The gaps between lvl1 super costs are 25 AP and the gaps between lvl3 supers are 75 AP, so a three-way breakdown of lvl2 super costs should look like 300/350/400 AP or 325/375/425 AP – which would require a lot of changes.

    And i disagree that yolo lvl2 supers should be difficult to dodge. I wasn’t involved with the initial design of Jak’s lvl2 super, so i can’t comment on the initial intention. But purely as a fighting game designer, making the bomb the most threatening part of Jak’s lvl2 super makes no sense to me. I can’t picture that leading to fun gameplay. Do you consider Toro’s lvl2 super fun?

    In my opinion, making it all about the initial stun was the right call gameplay-wise. Maybe it wasn’t the right call thematically, but a balance patch isn’t the right place to change the theme of a super move. That ship has sailed.

    crashbfan: You mean these combos? I changed absolutely nothing that would make them possible, so those confirms must have existed before.

    Wait, do you mean it’s possible that there’s tech you might not have discovered after playing the game for a whole year?

  35. Maj Post author

    Hey guys, i don’t know how much longer i can keep this up. So far i’ve been responding to every single question for over a year now, which is extremely time-consuming!

    Currently i’m focused on developing another game, which i can’t talk about yet. But i really do need to give it my full attention, so that it grows into something that hopefully you’ll all want to play someday.

    In the meantime, i need to step away from these discussions about PASBR. They can get pretty stressful and distracting sometimes, plus frankly i’m starting to feel like there’s nothing more i can add.

    It seems like everyone’s already made up their mind about the patch one way or the other, so it’s in your hands from here on out. Sometimes it feels like the opportunity to complain directly to SMS or to ex-SuperBot developers like me actually hinders the community’s ability to develop new tech and adapt.

    If i get the opportunity to work on another patch and the timing is right, i’ll let you guys know. And if i have some unexpected free time over the next few weeks, i might try to make another PASBR combovid like this one. But otherwise i feel it’s time to step away a little bit. Hope you all understand.

  36. crashbfan

    heroicmoises was just joking with his comment… i dont see how you missed that. all 3 of those needed a nerf and everyone knows it… i dont see how sly’s level 3 is allowed to be one of the cheapest when it isnt even affected by the stage, guaranteeing 2 kills on each person. thunder roll being completely unpunishable on block by the entire cast and teleport speaks for itself

  37. Maj Post author

    Man, if you guys are starting to troll me then it’s definitely time to go. Looks like i picked the right time to step away. Well, it’s been fun :)

  38. khknight

    “making the bomb the most threatening part of Jak’s lvl2 super makes no sense to me”

    I really dont mean to sound harsh, but your backwards logic just blows my mind sometimes.

    The super is called the dark BOMB, if the bomb is not meant to be the most threatening about the super then it shouldn’t be called the dark bomb. Its should be called dark jak instead :/

  39. nnaryt

    Oh man, I don’t want to end it like this, this is embarrassing and stupid.

    Hi Maj.

    Once again, thanks for your continuous output the whole time, because by going through the earlier comments and nit picking, I admire your endurance. You knew it along the way that this community is one of the youngest, in terms of age and length.

    This game was designed as a Four Player-Party Brawler game and so in that perspective, many things were making sense but not in a 1v1 scenario.

    Characters jumping that high while keeping control of your character trajectory, ignoring fundamental space control (that’s small in relative of the screen size) of your opponent while having at full jump height two air dodges and no landing lag. This is ridiculous for a 1v1 perspective but necessary while brawling with many players and all hazards, projectiles, items going on.

    The same goes on for down-tech and additional jumps after getting hit. There was no point at all staying on the ground, trying to anti-air with so few effective anti-air buttons, no point to create a tech trap after your opponent is falling after a combo, no point to catch someone performing a down-tech.

    There was little trade-off for a jump-in, jumping minimalized risk way too far and created for the attacker frame advantage on block. A pure ground game was non-existent.

    Baiting your opponent to whiff a button and punish him for it isn’t all the time a valid option, because of frame data and the aforementioned jump.

    You can’t blame Maj, this game was designed primary as a Four Player-Party Brawler game and you can’t expect to transition it into a versus game, not with a single patch and not while a single person is working on it and you having no idea about the technical difficulties. Even so, if many iteration of patches existed to improve the neutral game to a more traditional fighting game, at its core design, the decisions made for a brawler would still exist.

    It was and still is an excellent Party Brawler and now a better versus game.

    Your cries about landing lag, designed elements from the lore a character originated to his debut in this game speak volumes about your personal character and posting stuff that hasn’t been touched with the patch at all and blaming as always not yourself, but someone else for it. You people are insane.

    Thanks Maj for improving the neutral game for the better. Landing Lag, Down Tech Lag and removing an additional jump after getting hit is essential for a fighting game. I truly believe, you improved the 1v1 aspect of this game. Top-Tier characters have been substantial nerfed, Low & Mid-Tier buffed.

    It’s time for the community to evolve their game, hosting tournaments and stop acting like online results matter. Online play is good enough to get confidence in your neutral game, memorizing the opponents’ buttons and building a solid game plan around your matchup.

    But it still has to be executed in offline mode, because of the frame data it’s been built around. Even if the lag is absurdly small, don’t underestimate the delay it has on both of you.

    If your jump into the opponents mid/close range is getting punished because of landing lag, space your jump-in accordingly to your matchup and respect the space that character defends.

    This game has now some attention thanks for SSM, Maj and all the players, especially Bam, that have been trying to build an offline scene around of it. The Runback is streaming and less people start hating on it. And you just drop the ball, this shows your support and the kind of community it has.

    I thought some of the eventhubs troll were bad or some streammonster comment, but the highly psabr forum tops it all.

    I do wish you the best of luck Maj and hopefully your next game turns out great too. Let us know if you can, I am always interested in fresh and new designs.

    Kind regards
    nnaryt

  40. _LightSage

    @Maj
    Oh my bad Maj about the cost tier for Level 2s. And I understand the perspective of why Level 2s shouldn’t have a 3rd cost tier.

    I never said Level 2 Supers should be difficult to dodge when yoloed. I was just saying how extremely bad Jak’s Level 2 is when yoloed. Most other Level 2s are decent or effective enough when yoloed, such as Toro. This includes all supers similar to Jak’s Level 2, which makes Jak’s Level 2 look worst than it already is.

    Perhaps I used the wrong word. What I mean to say is since the super is titled DJ’s Dark Bomb and the concept behind the super is mostly related to the Dark Bomb, the Dark Bomb should be the most prominent and strongest aspect of the super. So the bomb doesn’t have to be the most threatening (by definition), but it should be a force to be reckoned with and strong itself, so the super can live up to it’s name. It’s not like the super is called Dark Jak, therefore relating to all abilities of Dark Jak. Dark Bomb is specifically mentioned, therefore the Bomb is the most important part of the super. So the initial stun can in-fact be the most threatening thing about the super, but I just described my other points on the Bomb.

    The Dark Bomb itself is a bit too weak, so it’s not really fun to use (stressful as hell is what it is actually and mostly all Jak mains are on board with this, so…) and it’s of course nonviable on it’s own (without the stun). IMO I would say the stun was the right move to make to finally making the super viable and more balanced, but not fully balanced, just 1 step closer to making the super almost completely balanced. Calling the super fine now is an understatement and false at least from a 2v2 and FFA point of view. It’s understandable why you’d say it’s fine from a 1v1 perspective, which makes sense, because the stun’s perspective seems to fit well in a 1v1 setting. However, in it’s more appropriate and focused modes, it’s pretty underwhelming. In conclusion, it’s not like it’s hypothetical buffs would make it OP or even super strong in 1v1, which is another point I was implying. The stun helped out big time, but it’s not all the super needed. As I said the Dark Jak buffs were completely fine and great, but the bomb needs something and then the super would be fine. Again, the super is suppose to be at it’s most effective and strongest in FFA, yet if you don’t stun EVERYONE, you’re not getting the kills. You know somethings wrong when majority of the Jak mains say his Level 2 needs work and that it hardly does it’s intentional job. No Dark Jak buffs at all are needed, he’s fine, just he bomb needs a buff or 2. Jak already suffers from extreme recovery that can be punished by even Nariko’s Level 1, so why have all these other cons as well, which overall makes the super bad? There’s nothing fancy you can even do with Jak’s Level 2. No wall bounce combos or confirms, no setups, etc. All there is is baiting and using the dashing punch to confirm. Overall with potential considered, the super is horrendously bad. Like seriously, everything comes down to the stun, so you’re looking at either baiting OR using the dashing punch confirm. This makes the predictability of the super prominent as well, which ofc comes with more problems. So you can’t even call his super “fun” with all these ridiculous cons and lack of creativity.

    Maj, I understand the stress that can come from this. I know for a fact me alone with my long ass comments & paragraphs, especially via Jak, are annoying to read. Trust me I know, but I just can’t type out replies with a few lines, because I have to go into detail on somethings. The cast overall is mostly balanced and as a fighting game that’s a great achievement for the team. My issue is just that I wanted my main-character balanced or respectfully as balanced-strong as he should be in this world/game. IF YOU DO get the chance to work on another balanced patch (for the love of god) please do inform us.

  41. Maj Post author

    khknight, LightSage: If that’s what it takes for you to accept Jak’s lvl2 super for what it is, then by all means call it “Dark Jak” instead! At this point it really doesn’t matter what it’s called. Within the context of a balance patch, it’s just frame data and hitboxes to me.

    The fact that he transforms into Dark Jak and imitates a move from a PS2 game is completely incidental and irrelevant. Let’s say you told me that the explosion is supposed to be green instead of purple and needs to end in a double rainbow. Without hiring a VFX artist, there’s literally nothing i could do to fix that problem. I can’t even make the existing explosion effect bigger! And i mean, who hires a VFX artist for a balance patch??

    You guys are confusing game development with patch development. Game development is a dedicated team encompassing every creative discipline, sometimes consisting of 100 or more people. Patch development is a skeleton crew of the fewest number of people required to make the most direct and minimally invasive changes to address the biggest (easily solvable!) problems. I thought i explained all this before, but maybe i didn’t do a good job.

    This patch actually started out as a list of 15-20 minor tweaks, with no general changes whatsoever. I was brought on to make those tweaks and nothing else. It quickly grew into enough changes to rival a massive $40 SF4 update – purely because i and the people i thanked above went way beyond the call of duty to make you guys happy.

    And we only got to do that because SMS is the rare kind of quality-driven studio that fosters talent/passion and encourages developers to swing for the fences. Because when you think about it, there was no financial incentive whatsoever to even release this patch; much less try so absurdly hard to make it good.

    Getting back to Jak’s lvl2 super, the ironic thing is that it’s exactly what you and LightSage keep asking for – a direct representation of how it looks and feels in the source material. Unfortunately that makes it terrible as a fighting game move. Because when you design moves to look and feel exactly like they do in another genre, you end up with attacks that are either vastly underpowered or overpowered – which is Jak’s whole problem in a nutshell.

    For better or worse, Jak’s lvl2 super was designed as a delayed AoE with massive startup. The only other lvl2 super in the game that’s vaguely similar is Toro’s lvl2 super. Personally i think they’re the weakest lvl2 super designs in the entire game, with the possible addition of Zeus’ lvl2 super.

    The way i see it, there were three feasible solutions to Jak’s lvl2 super:

    1) Reduce the startup to ~15 frames with the entire leap happening during superfreeze, with no forward movement whatsoever. That way he always lands on equal ground instead of jumping off platforms. Possibly give players a little control over the leap arc so they can optionally guide him forward (and off ledges, adding extra startup). Reduce the explosion size slightly to justify the reduced startup. However, this amounts to a complete functional redesign, and lumps him into the Kratos/EvilCole/Dante/Isaac/etc. category. Generally speaking, this kind of change is wholly inappropriate for a patch.

    2) Make the changes implemented in v1.10, adding an extra hit at the beginning of the super while preserving its uniqueness and original design. Personally, i think this was the right choice for a balance patch.

    3) Make the explosion much harder to dodge, making the super arbitrarily more effective without any correlation to skill; thereby making it far more frustrating for other players.

    Here’s the part where we seem to disconnect. I would rather a character or an attack be ranked bottom tier than be mindlessly unfun for everyone else to cope with. A lot of my nerfs are driven by this principle. Usually i try to compensate in some other area, but there are going to be a few bottom tier characters in every fighting game. It’s an inevitable fact of the genre.

    With the modern luxury of balance patches and updates, you can shake up those tiers every once in a while and give players a change of scenery. I tried to do that a little bit in this patch. But there are still going to be bottom tier characters. By definition, it’s utterly unavoidable. Especially when you’re balancing for three distinct gameplay modes.

    If you like a fighting game, you have to be willing to switch characters with every major balance patch and update. I’m not saying be a tier whore and only play the best character. But you have to be a little flexible.

    It’s always better to be attached to a certain play style than to a certain character. Because you can find a viable character to match your favorite play style far more often than you’ll win the lottery of your favorite character being top tier while having your preferred play style.

    As an added bonus, this outlook allows you to appreciate oddball moves like Toro’s lvl2 super, without wanting to remove everything that makes them unique. If he’s the only character you play, you’re far less likely to tolerate discrepancies from the norm. Personally, i like it when a roster includes a few weird characters with unusual mechanics (SFA2 Gen, VF2 Shun, 3S Urien, CvS2 Kyosuke, SSF4 Juri, UMvC3 Phoenix Wright), even if they end up underpowered. Sometimes it’s better that they’re not top tier, so they can add variety and expand the landscape without completely distorting the metagame (e.g. CvS1 Nakoruru, MvC3 Dark Phoenix).

    nnaryt: Thanks for the kind words, sir. I don’t mind the (perpetual!) criticism or the stress so much, but the amount of time it takes to write these responses is simply unsustainable. I’ve spent literally hundreds of hours replying to these questions. It just can’t go on forever.

    Anyway i wish you guys the best of luck and i really look forward to seeing where the PASBR community takes this game. Hopefully there’s enough support to continue running tournaments after the current Level Up season ends. I’d love to see a PASBR side tournament at Evo this year!

    Actually i can’t wait to see a tier list in six months. It seems like there are at least half a dozen characters (Drake, Cole, Kat, Nariko, Dante, Sly, Fat Princess, Kratos) that different people think are the best, plus a few unknown quantities (Isaac, Parappa, Raiden, Evil Cole) so i’m really curious where everyone will end up.

  42. _LightSage

    @Maj
    My perspective(s) of Jak’s Level 2 is a bit different to khknights. The representation of the Level 2 is fine. It’s faithful enough in terms of representation and source material definitely. That is not my problem. My problem is the super’s OVERALL viability. It’s neither fun or reliable -as a whole- unless the stun makes contact. And as I said before, you can’t even be creativity with it either. I don’t understand your point on Jak intimating what he does in his PS2 games in all stars as irrelevant & incidental. The fact that it made it into this games proves it’s relevant & intentional along with Jak’s moveset. Mostly every character in this game is faithful to their games, so I don’t understand the irrelevant point. Jak’s Level 2 is realistically a super he would really do in any fighting game. Now other powers of his dark form could have been picked or he could have been controllable, but Dark Jak should realistically be an option of a super or move in any game he’s in. It’s part of his core character. I also don’t understand your weird point on me confusing a balance patch with game development. A balance patch balances things out, which consist of nerfs and buffs, which sometimes also includes some slight animation changes and re-mapping of certain inputs. How is requesting a bigger AOE hitbox or active frames for a super irrelevant to a balance patch? It’s like me asking to re-increase the hit-volume of Jak’s D2 or active frames to his U3. Like, seriously? I’m not asking for a PERFECT representation of Jak’s Level 2 like it was in his game, just a little more power/relability so it can be reliable and try it’s best to seal it’s other flaws such as start up, etc. The thing is, neither active frames or an increase in size will make the super OP or super strong or fix all the super’s faults. One of these 2 changes are needed and that’s it and again, neither of these would make the super what you fear it would be along with the potential, which it wouldn’t have, that you fear it would have.

    Since his super was designed as a delayed AOE, it should definitely have a proper compensation such as active frames or a slightly bigger AOE from behind. At this point i’m going with active frames for several reasons. The super needs active frames and that’s it. The initial stun was like literally half of what the super needed. The other half is active frames for the bomb. Initial stun acts as a half compensation for the overall super’s unreliability, which works best in 1v1, but active frames would balance out the super (dark bomb and super) for other modes. I can’t explain this point and concept how I want, but the initial stun is close to irrelevant in FFA. I’m trying to explain to you how you can make the super balanced in all modes. So your #2 suggestion is what I’d say was the right choice to make to making his Level 2 finally viable in 1v1. Basically you balanced the super for 1v1 fairly good, but failed to for FFA, it’s preferred mode. Jak’s Level 2 doesn’t need as much work as the effort i’m putting into these long replies.

    Also, because of how different this game is to other fighters, I can’t pick up on other characters and stay with them. The game-play is too weird for me, so i’m stuck with Jak. Sure a few characters fit my playstyle, but I can’t main them for the reason I just mentioned and others. Even if I mained everyone in the cast, I’d still be talking to you about Jak though. As I said before, the overall cast balancing in this game is fine and good, so I respect that. I’m just breaking down my character’s full viability, issues and concerns, while still appreciating the better balancing of the game. Jak is better as a character now, but my other point, which is no longer my primary point, is just that more things could have been done to Jak. However, I realize that their were a lot of other things to worry about, so that’s why i’m not complaining about that (his full viability) now.

    Some of your points on not buffing Jak’s Level 2 are ironic as well because it doesn’t take any skill or difficult timing to dodge Jak’s Level 2 now, therefore making it un-fun and unfair for the player using Jak and fun for the opponent as they can not only dodge the super with EASE, but also punish it with EASE. So again it’s not only easy for other players to dodge his Level 2, but it’s ALSO easy to punish. Additionally, with the d2 confirm heavily altered, the super became harder to land anyway. I rarely get killed by this super because it’s so easy to dodge and punish. It’s so awful on how easy it is to deal with this super. You can “literally” do the shortest jump possible in this game and then air dodge and punish Jak with “ANY” super, even the slowest ones (since it has no active frames). Massive recovery, no active frames, semi-massive start, medium range AOE. Maj just do the math. I think the problem here is actual experience. At least you realize that his Level 2 is one of the weakest designed supers in the game, which I agree with (rationally ofc).

  43. _LightSage

    Sum Up Of My Perspective and Point regarding his Level 2-
    The initial stun that was added in 1.10 finally & literally made Jak’s Level 2 viable in 1v1, while literally barely having affecting it’s viability in FFA. Because it barely affected FFA is why I count it as a half compensation for the super OVERALL. Like a 1/2 step process with initial stun being 1. Active frames, which would be 2, would act as the final complete compensation for his Level 2, which in the end makes the super balanced in other modes, while overall being a super that is most likely balanced overall and not OP at all. *It’s worth noting* i’m assuming that active frames could be added to the super without the duration of it ending when Jak becomes movable again (not the same as the super’s animation being over/done btw). One sec, 0.1 sec, whatever of active frames would help. It doesn’t matter what weird duration time it’s active for. As long as it has a form of active frames is fine. A AOE super with a long start up, massive recovery and no active frames rightfully deserves a proper compensation.

    Side Note: I additionally don’t agree with a ranged AOE *LEVEL 2* Super Attack being viable through direct contact upon start up from the ‘character’ (not even the attack) who stuns the opponent by transforming so that the bomb hits reliably (since the target was stunned… so that the bomb doesn’t miss it’s target, which is again why this stun change is so appropriate in 1v1 while being a joke in FFA). Surely you should agree with that. Jak’s Level 1 already requires direct contact in order to get the kill and his Level 2 (a ranged 360 AOE attack) works the sameway pretty much; needing to be in front of Jak for landing his Level 2 reliably, unlike other vaguely similar Level 2s.

  44. crashbfan

    can you guys shut the hell up about jak’s level 2. Maj doesn’t want to read this garbage. first it was his blaster you talked about for a year, now it’s “the dark bomb” not having a threatening enough bomb. you might as well go and analyze every move based on its name then.

    if I was Maj I would literally skip over every jak post.

  45. _LightSage

    But you can complain about Sackboy (while you even disrespected Maj multiple times)? Ok. How about you mind your own business? What came to your mind before you even posted this? What power do you think you (of all people) have over me? Like I care what you have to say or others. I’m talking to Maj, so whatever you say or others, I simply don’t care. Oh and also terrible logic you used. This is one of the reasons why I hate the public. Can never directly talk to a person in public without others inferring and minding their own business, thinking what they say matters and will make a significant difference, when it will actually most likely start a conflict.

  46. Maj Post author

    I think Jak’s lvl2 super is perfectly viable in 1v1, and it’s certainly not the only lvl2 super that’s somewhat risky in FFA. It’s viable in 2v2 too, as long as your teammate defends you (or even capitalizes on the other opponent’s attempt to escape).

    Furthermore, the explosion VFX currently match the hit volume size and active duration. I wouldn’t want to change either of those without adjusting the VFX accordingly, which i can’t do in this case. So i think you guys are trying to solve an issue that isn’t a problem.

    Your complaint is that the super isn’t “Dark Bomb”-y enough, and that its thematic emphasis isn’t where you would want it to be. That’s a perfectly valid complaint during the pre-release development cycle. It’s incidental and irrelevant within the context of a balance patch. Like i said before, that ship has sailed.

    Also i’ve already stated that i disagree with your suggestion to increase its active frames, along with multiple explanations of my reasoning. There’s really not much else for me to say.

  47. _LightSage

    @Maj
    Perfect is a strong word to use xD, but yeah i’m fine with it in 1v1 as I said before. For 2v2 you exactly right.

    Well your #1 buff I sorta of like. I don’t think i’d be comfortable with the range decrease even if you do buff the start up and have it so enemies are frozen for a certain time period. before the bomb hits. Funny thing about this change though is that I was actually thinking about this exact idea yesterday, so I may have shared it after you turned down my suggestions.

    But are you sure there are no other alternatives? Like enemies movement being slowed down/reduced while the animation of the super is happening? Or anything else? Can you also elaborate on your 3rd suggestion?

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